GW has always been advertised as a game that both hardcore and casual players can pick up. After all, the only time you want to farm for something is probably to get that FOW Armour or that uber cool skin for a weapon/armour/shield (or that ridiculously overpriced Sup Rune of Absorb); items which are relatively unimportant in terms of game balance.
However, that does not seem to be the case when it comes to skill acquisition. Everytime one buys a skill in PVE for his character, the price goes up. This will go on until a point where a skill will cost a player 1 plat a pop. 1plat = 1000g, and that IS a lot of money. Think about it: by the time a player reaches the Ring of Fire, he would probably have only 60% of his skills of his Primary and Secondary Classes combined. Which means there are still (I am hazarding a number here) roughly about 30-50 skills yet unlocked (including elites). Although ingame quests do reward you with skills, they don't unlock everything. That would now mean so and so player will have to:
- Pay XX k worth of gold to complete his list of skills for his primary/secondary profession
- Earn a good amount of skill points for the skills he is buying as well.
Ah, at this point some people will just point out: Hey! He doesn't have to get ALL the skills right? The skills the quests give are more than sufficient!
Not true. After all, farming for l33t skinned items or l33t FOW armour is one thing; getting skills for your classes is another. In a sense, they DO make a difference. After all, isnt it a fact that the skills are all unique, that each of them are good and applicable to different types of situations? I want to try this skill combination here, but... hang on! I have to spend 5 plat and 5 skill points first! Which I have zero (or little) of! La friggin hell! Back to farming people...
Of course, after completing your primary and secondary skills, let's just say you want to change to a new secondary. My W/Mo will now like to feel the power of W/E aftershock/hammer madness. Or maybe in a bit of W/N condition spreading. Or maybe even in a bit W/R IWAY frenzy. Lo and behold! More skills to unlock! More farming!
So my question is this: Is it necessary for players to spend (and to kill so many monsters to get those skill points. After all, you can only get THAT many quests and missions) that kind of money just to experiment with the skills? Wasn't this Anet's vision? To develop a game which will reward players with the skill and not the time spent? So why do I have to spend so much time getting even the means to be competitive? As a result of this exhorbitant skill purchasing, even my creativity in creating new builds is stunted.
And actually, that's not the end of it either. Now, let's assume I have a W/Mo in PVE. After spending endless days trying to get those skills and completing them, let's just say I want to start a new character in PVE. A Mo/W. Guess what people? I have to unlock them all over again in PVE! Now, that is irritating!
Now, now, I am not saying that our new Mo/W will get all the skills I unlocked from my W/Mo right off the bat in Pre-Ascalon, nor even Post-Ascalon either. What I am saying is that I should have free access to them as and when I can get them in the game from the skill trainer or quest. Confused? I shall explain it in detail.
- My new Mo/W should unlock skills as per normal from Quests.
- However, when I reach a Skill Trainer that allows me to buy skills, I should have a message that says," This skill has already been unlocked for a previous Character. Unlock for this character as well?"
- I should not be paying anything for a skill I have already unlocked in PvE.
Hopefully, I hope someone somewhere from the Anet dev team will read this and understand why the current system of skill acquisition goes against their philosophy of a grind-free game.
To sum it up:
- Skill Acquisiton is a hassle for skills that have to be bought.
- Skill acquision cost should not be repeated for skills I have unlocked for a previous character. I should not be paying 1 plat for the Succor I unlocked for my W/Mo and pay that exact same amount for my Mo/W. In fact, skill acquisition should have nothing to do with how much $$ you can pay. Money is hard to get for a casual player.Remember: No farming.
(I have purposely left out the topic of Elite skills. IMHO, I feel that they should not be capped again. Of course, that's debatable.)
Ah well, finally got that off my chest! Now, I shall go off to try a bit of FOW soloing...
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06-04-2006, 10:09 #1
GW Non-Grind? Not true when it comes to Skills Acquisition in PVE.
06-04-2006, 10:21 #2
They've heard it before, and with better reasons then what you have listed.
They've threw a few bones in response. Back in the day, it cost more then 15,000 experience to get a level after 'level 24'. It would keep scaling up and up. About the only repeatable quests that you could do were in FoW/UW, and that was dependant on favour. There was no faction for PvP, either.
All in all, after all those changes, most people were content. I personally haven't had any problems with skill gain in PvE since then.
06-04-2006, 10:34 #3
I think that the skill acquisition is fine the way it is. 1 plat is really not that hard to gain, especially if youve already got your lvl 20 W/mo. Once you have finished the main missions, there are still the bonuses (giving a skill point each), and on top of that there are the end game quests, essentially giving a skill point each too, so if you actually play the game the way they want you too, you should easily get enough points to unlock for your primary and one secondary character.
I think that being able to get skills (even the way it is now) that are really powerfull early in the game is changing PvE completely. No more are we seeing fresh-faced lvl 6 Elementalists doing The Northen Wall, we are seeing high powered lvl 6 owning Elementalists casting Meteor Storm. This kind of ruins the realism and role playing of the RPG elements of the game.
In my opinion, you should not be able to gain skills already unlocked for free, as in any game you need a bit of grinding, or you just dont have anymore to attain. Its all well and good starting a new Mo/W but once you have unlocked all your previous W/Mo's skills you are going to get very bored. There would be little incentive to give high rewards for the late game content, as the players would have already unlocked everything, and I personally wouldnt be bothered to do them if I didnt gain anything.
Last edited by firetail; 06-04-2006 at 10:46.
06-04-2006, 10:35 #4
When Playing my Mez/War from to Pre Searing to Hells Precipice, only changing my secondary as means to variety i found i was compeatly able to complete all missions & quests aquiring nearly all my skills for both Primary & secondary. And i think i had about 40 skill points un used and 30k is in the bank.
I dont need to have each classes maxed on my one character - i can complete the game and anything it throws at me with what ive got.
Its a choice and enjoyable adventure to develope my character with its maxed out skill set - i am pleased you dont NEED all the skills to play the game, but that it is a choice a way for people to develope their character past basic.
Anet Provides and with some tweaking (as per Master Nightfalls's post) they created a better balance for attainability.
To complete the game you need Armor,Weapons & Skills
Via reasonable progression you can get Collectors Armor & Collectors Weapons ( Until i got a Willcrusher i always used Collectors weapons) & via quests you get nearly all your skills for your current two classes as well as Skill points per level & for some quests that you complete meaning once you get to ember light camp you can finish up your skills selection.
Once you change secondary you can do your new secondarys class quests.
Glad you got it off you chest - look at it like this - WHat do i NEED to play this game and what is enjoyable to work towards =)
06-04-2006, 10:46 #5
This discussion has taken place before. Unfortuunately, I didn't start the thread so I can 't find it anymore.
But it's true. PvE build versatility is NOT Anet's priority. So easy it is to make a specific PvP build, so hard and expensive it is to play with builds in PvE.
Appearantly, ANet didn't expect people to want to play rp in a rpg and max out one character, not only by means of reaching lvl20 but also by means of having all builds available in PvE. Why is it so easy for PvP and so hard for PvE?
For example: the all mesmer FoW/UW/Sf trips require a mix of many builds and people who want to participate better have flexible secondaries.
For new secondaries, there are a few starter skills and a few profession specific skillquests that you can do that give about 10 skills.
So that leaves you 4 professions * 65 * 15k = 3900k xp to get after unlocking skills for your original primary and secondary.
A whooping 4 million xp and 260k gold!!
Let alone after factions is introduced with an additional 6*30+2*75=330 skills .. another 5 million xp and 330k gold.
So only after getting 9+ million xp you can call your character maxed out, complete and finished. Kind of ridiculous imho.
And yes, that is for each PvE character.
A few solutions that we thought up were:
1. New skillquests after finishing the game;
2. Discount for non-elite skills already unlocked by other chars (no skillpoint, 500g) after finishing the game.
3. Let the profession quests in the desert reward free skills as well (Monk Path and so on).
4. Let missions give more skill points, or let all missions, bonusses and quests reward a skillpoint. This way it's less dependent on xp.
Anyway, to prevent abuse by low lvl characters most people agreed that these new things should only be possible after finishing the game and there should be a challenge to get them.
Elites should still be capped for each character but the price for a signet of capture reduced to 250g.
Last edited by Findariel; 06-04-2006 at 11:07.
06-04-2006, 11:28 #6
I harped on this issue for quite a while, but ANet never seemed too eager to change things. Although to their credit they did make it so you can buy the skills you want right from the beginning of Post Searing now (minus Elites) if you have them unlocked which was a related issue for me.
Still, for anyone wanting to bring a PvE char up to PvP flexibility, the grind is there. Whether its worth it or not depends on who you ask. Personally as long as ANet leaves the Drok Trolls XP run alone, I'm happy.
(Well now that I've capped SoJ/FoC/etc. 4-5 times anyhow).
Last edited by Mraezk; 06-04-2006 at 11:30.
06-04-2006, 11:46 #7
You can do the basic secondary profession quests in Ascalon, Yaks Bend and Sardelac for some free basic skills.
- then the game lacks further quests, as you have already finished them with your "first" secondary.
* Increase the amounts of Quests.
But honestly there is no real problem to get skills, even if it is not that elegant:
Farm Trolls, go (farming) FoW/Underworld, fight mostly alone where you get a lot of XP and use a SCROLL.
Scrolls have HARDLY any use, but they are useful for gaining XP. They need an Update to offer some more and better effects, but they are already present to speed up skillgain. You will also get the money to buy skills easily while doing so.
It becomes cumbersome when you want to unlock all secondaries, with factions you have even two more, but also more quests and so on.
My advice: You do not need every skill of every secondary profession. Just unlock most and especially those you could use for certain builds. It makes no sense to capture all Necro Elites for a Ranger/Necro BEFORE you have an idea what you could with them at all. Only buy the skills that seem to have some synergy with your primary.
How much you want to unlock is finally up to you.
06-04-2006, 11:56 #8Originally Posted by firetail
06-04-2006, 12:22 #9
If you go through the game doing all the main quests/missions/bonuses for your character you will have almost enough to buy everything for your primary and secondary classes. If you complete all the "High-end" content too (FoW/UW/Tombs/SF/Titans) then you'll have far more than enough.
These are the classes YOU CHOSE, so the game has supplied everything you need for the play style you specified. Why should they give you the skills for the other classes for free? Sure, you might want to switch secondary for custom builds, but you'll still have at least enough skill points for a half-dozen or so builds using the other secondaries. If you want to buy every skill of every class for every character then that's YOUR CHOICE, just like every other "grind" aspect in this game.
And, yes, it can seem rather bothersome having to buy skills over again for another character but it's what's called a "gold sink", which are REQUIRED for the game economy to even remotely work (whether you think it does or not currently is a different topic).
Originally Posted by Destron
Last edited by Archangol; 06-04-2006 at 12:36.
06-04-2006, 12:28 #10
Yea i Agree , it really costy when u wanted to play 4 other secondary class , getting skills from them at 1k plat each is alot if u add them up , i had spend more then 70k just to try diffrent secondary profession skills and lota exp
cant imagine if factions is realesed more skills = more spending of gold + exp
Last edited by Destron; 06-04-2006 at 12:30.