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  1. #31
    GWOnline.Net Member shaktiboi's Avatar
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    628
    No, it doesn't work that way, Arredondo. What happens if you use your equation and a value of 50 ranks of Dagger Mastery?

    50 ranks * 0.2 per rank = 100% chance of a double strike. Meaning you attack twice as fast 100% of the time.

    Using your equation that would be 1.33 - (1.33 * 1) = 0

    If you attack with double attacks 100% of the time, your effective dagger speed would not be 0 (as your equation would predict), it would be half of 1.33 (0.665).

    Let's try 50 ranks with my equation:

    1.33 / ( 1 + 1) = 0.665

    See the difference? My equation for effective speed is correct.

  2. #32
    GWOnline.Net Member arredondo's Avatar
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    3,258
    I see where I went wrong... thx. So that means using Flurry with a 42 damaging IW build only does exactly 42 DPS? It's been reported as 47 since day one.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by shaktiboi
    You sir, are correct! That is a typo/cut-n-paste goof from earlier versions of the FAQ. If/when I get around to making a v5 of this FAQ, I'll correct that goof.

    BTW, I'm waiting for the dust to settle on the assassin class before doing V5. There are still a few unanswered questions about mechanics, but most importantly, there are some balance issues on the PvE side that IMO currently make the 'sin a fairly weak/annoying class for PvE play that I'm hoping the devs correct soon. If/when they do, it will affect some of the details in the Dagger FAQ, I'm sure.

    Meanwhile keep the bugs and questions coming!
    I've been using a build similiar to one of the ones you mentioned in your if i were to do it all over again thread and it's actually pretty good. Only thing you have to worry about is blind and enchantment removal, which not many mobs bring anyway.

  4. #34
    GWOnline.Net Member shaktiboi's Avatar
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    628
    Quote Originally Posted by arredondo
    I see where I went wrong... thx. So that means using Flurry with a 42 damaging IW build only does exactly 42 DPS? It's been reported as 47 since day one.
    Well, first you compute the effect of Flurry and IWAY upon the base weapon speed. So that 1.33 will become a smaller, faster number. Then you apply that result to the formula for effective dagger speed to derive your effective dagger speed with Flurry and IWAY.

    I honestly don't know how Flurry/Frenzy and IWAY stack together, so I'm not going to attempt this for you, lol. But with Frenzy alone, for example, you would do the following:

    1.33 * ( 1 - 0.33) = 0.89 base speed

    0.89 / (1 + .24) = 0.72 effective speed with 12 ranks in Dagger Mastery.

    Use that 0.72 value in the appropriate damage formula for the dagger and you'll have your new DPS. Of course, you have to adjust numbers for the 25% damage reduction bit from Flurry. It gets messy, which is why I don't want to do it, LOL.

    The entire point here is that IAS skills affect the base weapon speed of 1.33. Only after you have the new, post-IAS base speed can you then apply that to the effective speed created by double-strikes from Dagger Mastery.

    You also have to remember that there's a hard limit to the base weapon speed. If memory serves, you can't get any faster than a .75 base weapon speed no matter what IAS skills you stack up. That's the beauty of Dagger Mastery and the fact that it doesn't work by directly changing your base speed--you can effectively go faster than the hard limit.

  5. #35
    GWOnline.Net Member
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    459
    The discussion about weapon speed and effective dmg in battle is rather interesting.

    Just thought I might add my two cents in.

    shaktiboi kept emphasizing the variability involved with slower attacks. At first, I was curious how he derived that since averages always work out to be the same over a long period of time. However, with a bit more thought, I would have to agree with him whole-heartedly.

    Consider this:
    Why do two people sharing one washroom encounter far more difficulty than ten people sharing five washrooms. Technically the ratio of 2:1 people to washrooms is unchanged. Yet one situation often results in more problems than others.

    It has to do with the central limit theorem, one of the basis of statistical science. Given more data points, in this case washrooms and people, you are more likely to average out to a mean. In the latter scenario of 10:5 people to washrooms, it means it will be a more harmonious environment.

    So how is this related to the dmg discussion earlier you might ask.

    Consider this:
    A fast weapon hits 10 hits for 9-11 dmg in 10 seconds.
    A slow weapon hits 2 hits for 45 - 55 dmg in 10 seconds.
    If the block rate is set at 50%. That means on average you deal 50 dmg with either weapon considering the block rate.

    However, if we look at the ranges, we get:
    Fast weapon: 90 -110 and can range from 0-110 if we consider block rate since 50% block is random and can just as easily block all 10 attacks, although it is unlikely (chance is 1/2^10)

    Slow weapon: 90-110 and can range from 0 -110 if we consider block rate.

    You look at those numbers and at first glance it looks the same. However, now is where central limit theorem comes into play. Because of the far greater number of data points in the 10 hit scenario, it is far more likely to average out with a smaller variance. This means you are more likely to hit close to 45-55 range in dmg.

    What is the benefits of this you might ask? The slow weapon can do the same too right? It can but it has a much higher risk of being in the extreme scenarios of 0 or 110. The problem is that in a game like Guild Wars PvP, I imagine overdamage is not anywhere near as important as being able to avoid the scenarios of dealing little dmg. In fact, ideally, you probably want the weapon that is completely consistent in dmg in order to best utilize your build and avoid externalities of luck.

    EPYON

  6. #36
    GWOnline.Net Member
    Posts

    19
    I decided I could settle the fast, low damage weapon vs. the slow, high damage weapon debate by writing a program that quickly and easily evaluated weapon damages (not taking into consideration critical hits, or weapon skills). I wrote it in C# so you'll probably need the .net framework to run it, but here it is if people are interested:

    DamageCalc.exe

    I haven't thoroughly tested it but it should be relatively bug-free. And while I see absolutely no reason for it to cause any problems with your computer, I certainly will not be held liable if you use it and it does.

    After testing, in the long run the faster lower damage weapons will outdamage a slower, higher damage weapon at the same damage per second ratio. But in individual battles this isn't very pronounced. The difference shifts in favor of the slower weapon the lower your miss rate gets.

    Some other factors to take into consideration. Fights in groups aren't a duration that factors evenly with your weapon speed, so if a fight lasts 22 seconds, a weapon that hits once every 2 seconds will have more chances of hitting than a weapon that hits once every 5 seconds as an example (11 chances to hit vs 4). But with the weapon speeds in GW, this will usually never mean more than the difference of a single hit.

    If I can get detailed calculations for determining crit damage I'll add it in as well. It also does not consider blocking, evasion, etc... If there's demand for those things and people have some formulas for applying them, I can add them in.
    Last edited by Durgin; 28-05-2006 at 04:34.

  7. #37
    GWOnline.Net Member
    Posts

    19
    Sorry for the double post, can't edit my previous post any more.

    I just edited my damage calculator to v1.1. It now figures out average DPS, and allows you to enter a % chance to crit and figures that into the damage as well.

    Let me know what you guys think.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by epyon96
    The discussion about weapon speed and effective dmg in battle is rather interesting.

    Just thought I might add my two cents in.

    shaktiboi kept emphasizing the variability involved with slower attacks. At first, I was curious how he derived that since averages always work out to be the same over a long period of time. However, with a bit more thought, I would have to agree with him whole-heartedly.

    Consider this:
    Why do two people sharing one washroom encounter far more difficulty than ten people sharing five washrooms. Technically the ratio of 2:1 people to washrooms is unchanged. Yet one situation often results in more problems than others.

    It has to do with the central limit theorem, one of the basis of statistical science. Given more data points, in this case washrooms and people, you are more likely to average out to a mean. In the latter scenario of 10:5 people to washrooms, it means it will be a more harmonious environment.

    So how is this related to the dmg discussion earlier you might ask.

    Consider this:
    A fast weapon hits 10 hits for 9-11 dmg in 10 seconds.
    A slow weapon hits 2 hits for 45 - 55 dmg in 10 seconds.
    If the block rate is set at 50%. That means on average you deal 50 dmg with either weapon considering the block rate.

    However, if we look at the ranges, we get:
    Fast weapon: 90 -110 and can range from 0-110 if we consider block rate since 50% block is random and can just as easily block all 10 attacks, although it is unlikely (chance is 1/2^10)

    Slow weapon: 90-110 and can range from 0 -110 if we consider block rate.

    You look at those numbers and at first glance it looks the same. However, now is where central limit theorem comes into play. Because of the far greater number of data points in the 10 hit scenario, it is far more likely to average out with a smaller variance. This means you are more likely to hit close to 45-55 range in dmg.

    What is the benefits of this you might ask? The slow weapon can do the same too right? It can but it has a much higher risk of being in the extreme scenarios of 0 or 110. The problem is that in a game like Guild Wars PvP, I imagine overdamage is not anywhere near as important as being able to avoid the scenarios of dealing little dmg. In fact, ideally, you probably want the weapon that is completely consistent in dmg in order to best utilize your build and avoid externalities of luck.

    EPYON
    Pretty much a good summary, I agree with most of what your saying. You have to take into account though that spike damage in Guild Wars PvP is important, especially in 8v8s. However, in PvE, it may be better to be consistant, but it is all a matter of luck. Just a look outward, in WoW a few of the skills such as these cause slower weapons to be better: http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=21553 , http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=25300 , however some prefer faster weapons because in WoW each hit slows down the enemies casting speed. Anyway, good summary Epyon.

  9. #39
    GWOnline.Net Member shaktiboi's Avatar
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    628
    Because I'm shelving my assassin (she'll be used only as an inventory mule until Anet gets around to fixing the class, if ever), I will not be producing a V5 of this FAQ.

    If anyone wants the original source code for the FAQ contents to correct and enhance for the community, please PM me and I'll arrange to get you the RTF file somehow (the source is in WordPad format).

  10. #40
    GWOnline.Net Member
    Posts

    348
    if im a A/W wielding a sword. Will i net more DPS dmg than an assassin using dagger or warrior as primary using sword?

    like 16 rank in critical strike and 12 rank in swordmanship. Will that beat regular assassin with 16 rank in critial strike, and 12 rank in dagger mastery?

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