And if someone can put a credible argument that 1% of armor penetration on the base damage dealt on attack skill hits is better then anything they have, then he can turn white into black.Originally Posted by Fascination
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12-06-2006, 09:43 #51
12-06-2006, 10:00 #52
I knew this would happen, the monk gets a couple of eng management skills and now things are "unfair." These requests for "balance" changes are irritating.
PVE monks have an easier time, yes, because hench AI can't heal as well as a human player. I didn't need AoE to finish factions by myself.
AoE in PVP has limitations and can be countered like any other build in this game. Think out of the box.The Brustow Sisters
Phelia Brustow (Warrior) Lane Brustow (Monk)
Renea Brustow (Elementalist) Chara Brustow (Mesmar)
Guild: [OoUL] Order of Unholy Legion
12-06-2006, 10:11 #53Originally Posted by Brustow
MasterNightfall, I have always thought highly of your comments on various topics, but your responses in this thread seem a bit hostile and irratible. I would not make a thread I did not have extensive working knowledge about. I try not to question other player's skill level on a forum board because there is indeed no way to determine such a level in this format.
12-06-2006, 10:16 #54
MasterNightfall, maybe, however, your opinion that absorption is to make up for some lack luster performance of the strength attribute is....just a player's opinion. I have serious doubts Arena.net sees it that way, however should what you are suggeting be the truth of the matter, then I think strength needs to be improved as well as give the other professions a 5th attribute. So in the end, and I am leaving this as the end as far as discussion of this with you for there is no official "meat" to what you are saying in the game mechanics, metagame scheme of things, achieving balance remains the point.
I am not adverse to improving the strength attribute if that's what it will take to give the other professions something that warriors have enjoyed exclusively and, according to the other professions, "imbalancedly," and this takes into account assuming of course there is any merit to what you have said. You see either way imbalance is what is displayed and that is the whole point to the Ops choice of proposing a "skill balance," as well as my relating it to seeking balance at the root level of the professions themselves, the grander scale.
Macro focus appears to be quite a bit more necessary as far as balance issues, especially in light of the Absorption rune having no hp penalty and adjusting the "absorption attribute," so to speak. Let the rest of the professions have such a sytled rune only adjustable attribute with max 8 points too! :)
Calderstrake, it seems that your fighting an uphill battle similar to the "nerf the 55 monk" groups. The only answer is to make one yourself and do the same thing, at least that is what the pro 55 monk groups will put out there: If you can't beat em join em. I am not suggesting this is right or wrong or balanced. What I am saying is that you are taking a lead here based on, and some feel it's more emotionally motivated, a response to some battles that you lost. I don't know that you lost them but whether you did or not doesn't change your balance issue and that this skill very well could be imbalanced, but it gives others the chance to use that as your motive, especially if they were the winners or beat the same team afterwards. What is popularly accepted will trump what is right, and thus, sadly, you are fighting history no matter how right you may be.
Last edited by Fascination; 12-06-2006 at 10:26.
12-06-2006, 10:29 #55MasterNightfall, I have always thought highly of your comments on various topics, but your responses in this thread seem a bit hostile and irratible. I would not make a thread I did not have extensive working knowledge about. I try not to question other player's skill level on a forum board because there is indeed no way to determine such a level in this format.What nerf to IWAY? The nerf to IWAY was:
...It's like saying IWAY is easily countered; the claim just reeks of inexperience.
I really couldn't let that issue pass when you decided to bring 'inexperience' into it.
And as for the alpha comment, that's not to take a dig at you, but some advice. Use it or not, that's not my business.
12-06-2006, 10:29 #56Originally Posted by CHunterX
Fact: You do NOT have to maintain this spell on everyone, the cast and recharge time allows you to be a reactional healer (given divine favor, RoF, prot spirit, guardian)
the boon prot combo is very energy intensive, hence the requirement of an elite level energy management. When I first saw this skill on the skill list I was quite shocked too, basically everything a boon prot cast is virtually free! But then after I read about all the skills, I think AoE serves to introduce a new way of playing. A new way to counter enchantments to be exact. In prophecy the only way to deal with enchantments is to remove it, or use desecrate enchantments. Well, we all know how popular DE is..
In factions however, enchantment removal is not the only way to deal with enchantments (mind you, there exists a Gaze of Contempt, which is quite out of balance too if you have prophecy mindset). Set out-stripping the prot monk aside, the new ways to deal with enchantments, as people have pointed out, nature's renewal (not so new), tranquility, shadow shroud, the list goes on, but if any of these 3 is incorporated into a build with means to execute, enchanting become much less effective, add desecrate enchantments AND defile enchantment into to table and enchantments are well.. useless.
Another thing to look at is the existance of the ritualist class, a rit lord can be so protective that it is hard to even hurt people, how can monks keep up the pace with such a limited scope, way more micromanagement and anti-enchantments so easy and readily available?
PS: almost forgot, take a look at the 2 Apostasy skills, one from nec one from sin :P
Last edited by lavenbb; 12-06-2006 at 10:39.
12-06-2006, 10:41 #57Originally Posted by lavenbb
12-06-2006, 10:46 #58
To OP, You're completely wrong because you don't really understand why the original dual smite was overpowered. The whole problem was that Draw Conditions and/or Divine Boon (for you RA/PVE types) was 1/4 cast and zero recharge, allowing people to spam zealot's fire 4 times per second, as well as gain 100+ energy within 2-3 seconds. This is not an issue with the current dual smite, you won't getting 100 mana every 30 seconds with AoE smite, and even if you did, you won't be able to spam wards and etc. like an E/Mo would, because your attribute spread requires high Protection Prayers and Smiting Prayers.
The fix to that problem was to increase the casting time on popular "smite" skills such as Draw Conditions so they could no longer be spammed ridiculously. They also reduced the range of effect of Zealot's Fire and Balthazar's Aura, making them significantly less powerful. One of the reasons why the original dual smite was overpowered was because the smiting would hit people within a "Heal Area" radius. With the current Zealot's/Balth's you're looking at a touch radius, or attacking radius at best.
So let's compare past and present based on damage output, energy gain, and versatility/adaptability:
Original Dual Smite
- 88 Zealot's damage per second (zero recharge Draw Conditions spam) + Balth's
- Full energy every 30 seconds (usually 70-80 energy pool)
- Access to wards and other possibilities such as healing/etc. because of 12smite,9es,10___ attribute spread
- Full smite bar required 4 skills (Zealot's, EP, Balth's, Draw)
Current Dual Smite
- 37 Zealot's damage per second (Approx RoF/Guard/AoE switchoff, it's actually slightly less than this) + Balth's
- No mana gain, but 18 seconds of additional spamming time when Ether Prodigy would've been down, during this time if you spam NONSTOP, you are saving 18x5 = 90 energy, which is less than what EP offered, plus monks have a smaller energy pool. Also important to note is that the 90 energy mentioned is not "energy on demand," meaning it's only energy saved if you would've spammed without AoE, not direct usable energy that EP offered.
- No access to utility skills because of heavy demand on attributes, high smiting and protection prayers are both required.
- Full smite bar requires 5 skills (Guard, RoF, AoE, Zealot's, Balth's)
12-06-2006, 11:25 #59
I like Air of Enchantment but I propose something different...
What about lengthening the cast time of Air of Enchantment? 1 second perhaps.
Perhaps then the monks will actually have to take some care when they cast it. At the moment it can be fired off with next to no fear of interruptions or disruption.
Nobody has cared to make other suggestions to balance the skill. Perhaps it is fine, but should every Team/Guild have to create builds centred around stopping single/dual smite?
We play Guild Wars for the immeasurable creative options it provides us when building teams, yet many of us have quickly jumped onto this powerful new skill from Factions to gain the upper hand in PvP.
12-06-2006, 11:35 #60
Also for the E/mo smiter Ether renewal got it's duration decreased , could only give 3 instead of 4 energy per enchant and requires 12 energy storage to get those 3 energy per enchant. The e/mo build you talk of is incapable of getting the results you stated since ages and as you said was overpowered beyond belief, so i 'm not sure why you would make any comparison to it.
A small tweak on AoE is welcome imo. A small increase in cast time to 1 second would be enough.Interrupt is also the weakness of the GoR , divine spirit combo.Or enchant removal of course...
I would like to add that saying a skill is counterable doesn't make it balanced. Every skill that I can think of can be stolen by a mesmer , (nearly) every enchant can be stripped/drained , every hex can be removed ,...
Last edited by Uluwuluzulubulu; 12-06-2006 at 11:42.