Book thread!

[Alaris]

Disney movies that do much of what Alaris cautions against above, except they're geared at little kids

Yes, I do have much deprogramming to do on my kid. Thankfully she's already a lot more informed now than a lot of kids.

What bugs me though isn't so much the kids of informed parents who give an education to the kids, but the kids of uninformed parents and/or parents who don't take the time to tell kids what's what.

Music and movies could be such a teaching force, instead it teaches us dumb things. I've gotten better life advice from heavy metal than pop, imagine that.

[Raye]

I have a bigger problem with Beauty and the Beast than with The Little Mermaid, though they're both pretty bad. I have all sorts of issues with disney movies as well, but I have a soft spot for them since I watched them a lot as a kid. My parents didn't know **** about ****.

[The Praetorian]

By that definition The Little Mermaid is one of the most vile movies ever created.

What about Beauty and the Beast? An entire movie about Stockholm syndrome.

[Rob Van Der Sloot]

What about Beauty and the Beast? An entire movie about Stockholm syndrome.

Well in defence of Beauty and the Beast, atleast Belle is a female character that shows some spine, which cannot be said about practically every other Disney princess. And she is able to see there's a tormented soul beneath the beast that keeps her captive. It's not really Stockholm Syndrome, because she's not seeing something that aint there. The beast tries to keep her at bay, but she is able to pierce through the facade and see the man underneath it all. So she's not falling in love with him because he's keeping her captive. She falls in love with him because there really is a sad man beneath the beast. She is able to fall in love with him, despite him looking like a monster. And in the end, it is the beast that is the victim, and Belle who has to save him. So unlike the usual fairytale, the gender roles are reversed, and that makes it a damn good movie.

What kind of ruins it, is that he has to transform into a beautiful prince at the end. Wasn't it the point that you can't judge a book by its cover, and that she was able to love him despite his monstruous looks? You kind of undo the strength of your movie if you make him transform into a beautiful prince anyway at the end. Why couldn't he have been an ugly prince? Because wasn't the movie making a point about looks not mattering? Didn't Belle fall in love with who he was, not what he looked like? Why did that have to be rewarded with something so superficial as making him a beautiful prince? Shrek did a great job at pointing out this fatal flaw in the story, and did it better.

When Fiona falls in love with Shrek, his looks do not matter any more. And she transforms into an ogre permanently as well. And they are one happy ugly couple.

This was one of my few issues with the movie Avatar as well, and I apologise for sidetracking. But why had the Na'vi all have too look pretty and human like? They looked like idolized versions of humans mixed with cute kittens. Did they have to look sexy in order for the audience to be invested in the characters, and care about their love story?

The movie Enemy Mine did it a lot better, where it wasn't a love story, but the story of a human and an alien, who are at war with each other, and are stranded on a dangerous alien planet. The two have to learn to trust each other, but the alien hardly looks human at all. They made him ugly, yet eventually you sympathize with him. And to bring this back on topic: Enemy Mine is based on a novella written by Barry Longyear in 1979.

[Raye]

I think mulan shows about 20 times more spine than belle. Hands down, so does Pocahontas. As far as Disney princesses go, belle is not all that great aside from being well read and what you described.

But while we are in the beauty and the beast don't forget how abusive the beast was to her at the beginning, Disney makes the point that all of that is more or less okay because her love changes the beast. Its not okay.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus.

[BladeDVD]

Disobey your parents, ignore your friends, and run away with the guy who is clearly bad for you! Then you'll live happily ever after.

How was the Prince clearly bad for her? And her actions resulted in her father being turned into a subhuman seaworm and his powers falling in to the hands of the sea witch.

The problem with the Little Mermaid isn't that there are no consequences, or that she lives happily ever after, the problem is that Ariel never really shows any understanding of how her very stupid actions led to the above, and that the horror of those consequences is felt for such a short period of time.

If you take the time to point that out, it's actually a very good lesson about what happens if you don't listen to your father.

What kind of ruins it, is that he has to transform into a beautiful prince at the end. Wasn't it the point that you can't judge a book by its cover, and that she was able to love him despite his monstruous looks? You kind of undo the strength of your movie if you make him transform into a beautiful prince anyway at the end. Why couldn't he have been an ugly prince? Because wasn't the movie making a point about looks not mattering? Didn't Belle fall in love with who he was, not what he looked like? Why did that have to be rewarded with something so superficial as making him a beautiful prince?

First of all, I want to say that I never really thought that the art design for the transformed prince looked very beautiful or even handsome.

Having said that, he was supposed to be a prince and princes in classic fairy tales are generally good looking. While it can be faulted for not overturning convention, I'm not sure it's entirely fair to pillory it for following such a widely used convention.

Shrek did a great job at pointing out this fatal flaw in the story, and did it better.

I agree that Shrek did a fantastic job of turning this convention on its head and further making the point that you don't have to be beautiful to be good or happy, but it could just as easily be a comment on Hollywood in general as a comment on fairy tale princes and princesses.

And to be honest, I don't have a problem with pretty people in the roles of heroes and heroines as long as it is what they do that really counts, rather than how they look.

The movie Enemy Mine did it a lot better, where it wasn't a love story, but the story of a human and an alien, who are at war with each other, and are stranded on a dangerous alien planet. The two have to learn to trust each other, but the alien hardly looks human at all. They made him ugly, yet eventually you sympathize with him. And to bring this back on topic: Enemy Mine is based on a novella written by Barry Longyear in 1979.

I also wanted to point out that the point of Enemy Mine is how different the two protagonists are vs. a love story where you (usually) don't want to spend half the picture convincing the audience that the it make sense for the love interests to be interested in each other. Physical attraction is just easy to understand and translates to movies well.

Which is not to say that looks aren't given too much importance, of course they are, always have been. That's just life. It's good to be reminded of this from time to time (yay Shrek!) but looks are always just going to get more importance than they deserve, so I have a hard time getting too worked up about it. All we can do is try to prepare our kids for this unfairness along with all the others life will throw at them.

I think mulan shows about 20 times more spine than belle. Hands down, so does Pocahontas. As far as Disney princesses go, belle is not all that great aside from being well read and what you described.

But while we are in the beauty and the beast don't forget how abusive the beast was to her at the beginning, Disney makes the point that all of that is more or less okay because her love changes the beast. Its not okay.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus.

You don't think calling the Beast abusive is exaggerating? Especially considering the time it was set in and the conditions of the story. Clearly Gaston is used to show what a real beast is and fully plays out the exaggerated male jock stereotype.

Her father trespassed on his property and was locked up for it. Belle offers herself in exchange and other than yelling at her a few times, the Beast never hurts her nor does he go through with any threat he makes (which are only made because he honestly lacks social skills and is trying to protect and save himself).

Remember that the Beast was cursed because he didn't care about other people. His love for her (and fear for his fate), and her love for him and the kindness she shows him teaches him to care for others, to put others ahead of himself. That's the point of the the story of Beauty and the Beast. I know that it's become popular to interpret it as "if I just love him enough he'll stop beating me," especially with the growing awareness of domestic abuse in the last several decades, but that's not the story that Disney's movie tells. Quite the opposite in fact given the that the true villain of the picture is Gaston, who not only embodies those traits, but the girls who do swoon for him are portrayed as brainless drones who look for no more than physical beauty and strength rather than character.

(Mulan is a much stronger female character, but it's just not as good a movie. Pocahontas I've never seen all the way through, so can't comment.)

[Alaris]

Mulan is not just strong, she is smart and sensible. A good role model all-around. Even in the 2nd movie she maintains a positive influence mostly, except for the "follow your heart" bit.

Things turning out fine *after* the character has made a good decision, I am fine with. In a way, I see the Beast's transformation more as a reward for Belle's love rather than the more cheesy "I get the smarts *and* the looks niiiiice".

[shadowhand]

I've gotten better life advice from heavy metal than pop, imagine that.

I guess that's to be expected.

The lyrics for Heavy - and indeed any metal is typically written by people that have put a lot of thought into what they're saying. They know it's niche music and they would rather convey a profound message to their dedicated listeners than sell another 100,000 songs. (Of course there are exceptions, but that goes for pop music too.)


[edit]

Also, Mulan and the Lion King were the only disney films I enjoyed watching with my nieces when they were younger.

And back to books, I just finished American Gods by Neil Gaiman.

Good stuff and I know that I'm late to it, but I've been wanting to read it for years. Not too happy with the portrayal of my native gods but I'm ok with the story overall (and the epilogue sort of makes up for it.) It's a modern day fairy tale with a few twists. Typical of Gaiman's style. Very intelligent plot and realistic characters. And a good story.

[BladeDVD]

Mulan is not just strong, she is smart and sensible. A good role model all-around. Even in the 2nd movie she maintains a positive influence mostly, except for the "follow your heart" bit.

I thought the follow your heart stuff was pretty bad and it's the point of the entire movie. She does experience significant loss because of it (though not really in the end) but the day is finally saved by a deus ex machina when clearly the follow your heart actions should have spelt doom and the death of tens of thousands (from the ensuing war). Disney sequels are generally horrible in my (limited) experience and I usually refuse to buy those for my daughter.

Also, Mulan and the Lion King were the only disney films I enjoyed watching with my nieces when they were younger.

Lion King is an entertaining movie, but talk about having terrible messages...that whole Hakuna Matata song and sequence, and the complete lack of any blow back on Simba for abandoning his pride (the lionesses and the rest of the land sufffered a lot, Simba gets the girl and parental approval after experiencing very brief personal anquish.


.... Sorry, I have a 4 1/2 y/o daughter, I've watched these movies a lot over the last couple years. lol

And back to books, I just finished American Gods by Neil Gaiman.

Good stuff and I know that I'm late to it, but I've been wanting to read it for years. Not too happy with the portrayal of my native gods but I'm ok with the story overall (and the epilogue sort of makes up for it.) It's a modern day fairy tale with a few twists. Typical of Gaiman's style. Very intelligent plot and realistic characters. And a good story.

I read this a long time ago, but it never really grabbed me.

[Alaris]

I thought the follow your heart stuff was pretty bad and it's the point of the entire movie.

You mean Mulan 1 or 2? I thought she was pretty clever and rationale the first one. The second one has iffy moments.