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  1. #31
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    This is a long thread, with long posts, so I didnt read all of it.

    But, You are given 2 classes to play with. If you have a problem with the ele E mangment skills, why not try the mesmer or necro ones? They are very good at what they do, and some even pack an offensive kick to them

    Or, you could give up a teensy bit on absolute DPS, and play more than one line to compliment each other
    Last edited by locodantes; 20-08-2006 at 07:00.

  2. #32
    GWOnline.Net Member TLLOTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    This is non-sense. Of course you aren't getting any dmg with just lightning orbs. It'll be like saying a warrior deals a lot of damage with just protector's stance in their skill bar. You need to see the bigger picture.
    Actually if you look at the bigger picture and assume for a moment that elementalists had unlimited energy then they can potentially match an auto-attacking warrior at best. Of course in reality an elementalist will quickly consume all of their energy trying to do so.
    dps wise eles win. Over a long time eles win (if your energy mngment is good). In one single hit, eles win. But it's over the 2-3 second range that warriors with frenzy can spike that eles can't compare. You think getting adrenaline is easy? Heck no. In PvP even 8 adrenaline takes about at least 13 seconds to build if not more. Targets move, you get blocked, countered, blinded. So if you're complaining that your 150/5 second recharging lightning orb is dealing mediocre dmg, think about 100 dmg/13 second recharging attack skill. And tell me which one of these two is going to give you better dps.
    You seem to be forgetting that during that time you'll also be inflicting considerable damage as a warrior with your regular attacks. The same can't be said for Ele's. Indeed the problem is that the kind of energy management necessary pump out any reasonable amount of damage compared to just a warriors regular attacks is utterly ridiculous, and when you consider that warriors powerful attack skills aren't even factored in yet, it's obvious that Elementalists simply aren't an effective means of doing damage.

    For elementalists to actually be considered remotely powerful they don't just need to be able to match up to a warriors damage, they need to be able to exceed it, as they are a soft target compared to a warrior.
    Distruption wise eles also win. Just look at how many KDs eles have and they're all over a long range. Warriors can be blinded, blocked, evaded, warded etc. But only spellbreakers/ mirror of ice can block eles KD.
    Firstly, no one is debating about elementalists usefulness in a utility role. The problem is that the description for elementalists and the nature of most of their skills makes it clear they were intended to be damage dealers first and utility second.

    Second of all, there are many many ways to shut down an elementalist, you just don't see them in GvG because the damage output of an elementalist is utterly neglible compared to a warrior.
    Yes eles aren't front line characters anymore. They aren't mainstay dmg dealer as in the days past, but they're still highly desired and used in both PvP and PvE. That said Eles do need a slight buff (some skills don't need exhaustion, and some can have increased dmg) ala. ride the lightning/lightnigh arrows. However they're powerful as it is, especially in the current metagame where everybody seems to carry melee counter and little to none for elemental.
    As I said before, that's because there's no need for elemental counters. The only counter the team needs to bring is a protection spell on their monk to heal up the damage.

    Yeah and eles are supposed to be squishy but they aren't =_= Wards + Blind + KD + Slow. They're pretty tough to kill. No they weren't supposed to be the biggest dmg dealer.

    They're reliable, long ranged, damage dealer, which have fewer ways to counter than a warrior.
    Err... have you even played an elementalist, let alone even looked at their skills? They have two entire attribute lines dedicated to damage dealing with a small amount of utility thrown in (with earth and water having the largest amount of utility skills). Not only that, but the manual itself describes them as being capable of doing more damage than any other class, something which is plainly untrue.
    But, You are given 2 classes to play with. If you have a problem with the ele E mangment skills, why not try the mesmer or necro ones? They are very good at what they do, and some even pack an offensive kick to them

    Or, you could give up a teensy bit on absolute DPS, and play more than one line to compliment each other
    That might be a good idea except Elementalist already have the best energy management skills in the game. While you might be able to do even better with some mesmer or necro skills thrown in, you're looking at having half your bar filled with energy management skills purely so you can cast a decent amount. Is that necessary for any other class in Guild Wars?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLLOTS
    Actually if you look at the bigger picture and assume for a moment that elementalists had unlimited energy then they can potentially match an auto-attacking warrior at best. Of course in reality an elementalist will quickly consume all of their energy trying to do so.

    You seem to be forgetting that during that time you'll also be inflicting considerable damage as a warrior with your regular attacks. The same can't be said for Ele's. Indeed the problem is that the kind of energy management necessary pump out any reasonable amount of damage compared to just a warriors regular attacks is utterly ridiculous, and when you consider that warriors powerful attack skills aren't even factored in yet, it's obvious that Elementalists simply aren't an effective means of doing damage.

    For elementalists to actually be considered remotely powerful they don't just need to be able to match up to a warriors damage, they need to be able to exceed it, as they are a soft target compared to a warrior.

    Firstly, no one is debating about elementalists usefulness in a utility role. The problem is that the description for elementalists and the nature of most of their skills makes it clear they were intended to be damage dealers first and utility second.

    Second of all, there are many many ways to shut down an elementalist, you just don't see them in GvG because the damage output of an elementalist is utterly neglible compared to a warrior.

    As I said before, that's because there's no need for elemental counters. The only counter the team needs to bring is a protection spell on their monk to heal up the damage.


    Err... have you even played an elementalist, let alone even looked at their skills? They have two entire attribute lines dedicated to damage dealing with a small amount of utility thrown in (with earth and water having the largest amount of utility skills). Not only that, but the manual itself describes them as being capable of doing more damage than any other class, something which is plainly untrue.

    That might be a good idea except Elementalist already have the best energy management skills in the game. While you might be able to do even better with some mesmer or necro skills thrown in, you're looking at having half your bar filled with energy management skills purely so you can cast a decent amount. Is that necessary for any other class in Guild Wars?
    Umm... my first character is an ele. I've got rank. Still need anything else?

    Eles can tank full stop. They aren't as squishy as most ppl make them to be. Besides in PvP there's no tank. An ele with ward is much harder to kill under focus fire than a warrior (especially the ones with frenzy - zap and they go puff) Heck even a mesmer with distortion survives longer under arenaline spike than a warrior with no stance relying solely on armor. There is NO tank in PvP. NONE! And eles tank just as good as warriors where I'm concerned.

    Warriors autoattacking!? Ha! Have you played warrior!? Tell me how much is their dps? Do you even realize that it's pretty low just auto attacking?

    http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=393924 <-- pls see.

    It's a whooping 19 dps with hammer. 17.2 with sword yay! <-- are you seriously saying this is anything to envy? Guess what happened if you use wand + Conjure and auto attack? No energy either. Wand itself has a 1 second reload time. And conjure base dmg is already 15-ish. + 22 from the wand.

    Now auto attack the 60 al dummy and tell me which of the two kill the dummy faster? Another thing, Ele is in the backline, warrior has to walk through traps, and a bunch of crap. Their presence alone tells the target which one is gonna get spiked next where as an ele can spike a totally unprepared unsuspecting target.

    In my experience, playing a good war is far far far more difficult than playing a good ele. Hey all you gotta do is just stand there and shoot bolts of lightning right? It's so boring. The question is how can you expect to deal lotsa more dmg when the stakes of playing eles isn't even that high.

    Think of assassin, good ones can spike really good. But the stakes are also very high. It's 70 armor going to the frontline. Compared to an ele who can safely spam bolts of lightning from the backline. Or even if the other team see a meleer coming they can blind them right away, costs so cheap, but how easy do you think it's to daze an ele? Or let's even talk about spiking prowess, how easy do you think to organize a perfect adrenaline spike? here's a hint much harder than organizing a perfect lightning spike. You have to catch up to the target first, make sure everyone's on the target, and their adrenaline is charged up. And if you take too long to get into position the target would be aware and would put up prot spirit/ healing hands/ guardian/ aegis. It's HARD to make a perfect adrenaline spike. Eles don't have this problem. All you need is have everybody press the button at the same time.

    Also necros deal more dmg than eles... through sacrifice! and most of these sac skill is touch. normal necros don't deal more dmg. It makes them very vulnerable, again it also crank up the stakes. Now there's blood spike. The dps of blood spike is actually rather poor, it's just the fact that lifesteal goes thru anything and there're a couple of necroks make this build actually viable. As for curses, they're conditional. Target has to be attacking/casting/adj etc... Otherwise they don't do dmg. Now of course if you do conditional skill you should get more benefit when the conditions are met.
    Last edited by Malchiel; 20-08-2006 at 08:42.

  4. #34
    GWOnline.Net Member Aiiane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    Umm... my first character is an ele. I've got rank. Still need anything else?
    Yes, for your arguments to be true. Whatever other posters may care about, I don't care what you've played or what rank you are. It's irrelevant, as the persona of any poster is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    Eles can tank full stop. They aren't as squishy as most ppl make them to be. Besides in PvP there's no tank. An ele with ward is much harder to kill under focus fire than a warrior (especially the ones with frenzy - zap and they go puff) Heck even a mesmer with distortion survives longer under arenaline spike than a warrior with no stance relying solely on armor. There is NO tank in PvP. NONE! And eles tank just as good as warriors where I'm concerned.
    If they expend resources to do so. Skill bar slots, energy. Armor is completely passive, does not use any resources, and works against a far broader spectrum than any ward does. (Oh, and by the way - Elementalist with Ward Against Melee, compared to a warrior with their armor: who goes down faster when hit by Fireballs?)

    Of course there's no tank in PvP, because people will hit the weakest targets. That's still no justification for making your entire team weak targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    Warriors autoattacking!? Ha! Have you played warrior!? Tell me how much is their dps? Do you even realize that it's pretty low just auto attacking?

    http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=393924 <-- pls see.

    It's a whooping 19 dps with hammer. 17.2 with sword yay! <-- are you seriously saying this is anything to envy? Guess what happened if you use wand + Conjure and auto attack? No energy either. Wand itself has a 1 second reload time. And conjure base dmg is already 15-ish. + 22 from the wand.
    First of all, you might want to read the post more carefully, the base damage for a hammer warrior with 16 weapon attribute is 20.8, or closer to 21 DPS. Not too far off, but it helps your credability if you get the correct number.

    You did, actually, use resources for that wand damage: the energy to cast the Conjure enchantment (negligible, granted), but also, the skill bar slot to bring that Conjure spell. That's 12.5% of your capability you sacrificed to do that damage. In addition, while you do more damage wanding with Conjure than a warrior's auto-attack DPS, as soon as you start casting spells, you stop wanding. A warrior's auto-attack DPS is added to their skill usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    Now auto attack the 60 al dummy and tell me which of the two kill the dummy faster?
    Which is neither here nor there, because you're pitting an elementalist with skills against a warrior without, which is exactly the point that had already been made: an elementalist must use many more resources than a warrior to produce the same result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    Another thing, Ele is in the backline, warrior has to walk through traps, and a bunch of crap. Their presence alone tells the target which one is gonna get spiked next where as an ele can spike a totally unprepared unsuspecting target.
    Irrelevant. Warriors with assassin secondaries render the prediction argument pointless, and traps are only as effective as the inverse of the capability to deal with them. Why do people bring traps and other warrior hate, if they're not scared of the warriors? If elementalists were more capable than warriors, you'd see much less warrior hate and much more caster shutdown. It exists, there's just no need for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    In my experience, playing a good war is far far far more difficult than playing a good ele. Hey all you gotta do is just stand there and shoot bolts of lightning right? It's so boring. The question is how can you expect to deal lotsa more dmg when the stakes of playing eles isn't even that high.
    I'll refrain from taking offense to that, in the interest of keeping this a debate and not a fight. Instead, I will state that I think it's silly to generalize as broadly as the above statement does, because what constitutes a "good warrior" or "good elementalist" is a very free-form definition, and thus the requirements to fulfill it are free-form as well.

    That said, why should the difficulty of playing a class be equated with it's power? Are you now arguing that elementalists are underpowered across the board? After all, if they're so easy, according to your logic they should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    Think of assassin, good ones can spike really good. But the stakes are also very high. It's 70 armor going to the frontline.
    With mobility skills to back them up - and after all, if you don't go to thr frontline, it's going to come to you anyways. Your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    Compared to an ele who can safely spam bolts of lightning from the backline.
    Actually, it'd be the midline, to be precise, which is exactly where the enemy's warriors are, and in range of their casters, as well - this isn't a British infantry battle where the opposing sides stand off from one another and fire volleys into the other's ranks to see who falls down first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    Or even if the other team see a meleer coming they can blind them right away, costs so cheap, but how easy do you think it's to daze an ele?
    A single ranger with Broad Head Arrow? An assassin with Temple Strike. A warrior with Skull Crack. Sure, they're skills that are never used. Ever wonder why? Because due to the lack of threat from elementalist damage, it's not worth it to specialize that much. There is plenty of worth, however, to specialize to counter warriors because they are powerful.

    Costs so cheap? 15 energy for 9-11 seconds of Blindness? There's not a more expensive condition in the game to apply. And it only costs 5 energy to remove it. An elementalist keeping a warrior Blinded will devote a majority of their energy to that task, rendering them useless for much else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    Or let's even talk about spiking prowess, how easy do you think to organize a perfect adrenaline spike? here's a hint much harder than organizing a perfect lightning spike. You have to catch up to the target first, make sure everyone's on the target, and their adrenaline is charged up. And if you take too long to get into position the target would be aware and would put up prot spirit/ healing hands/ guardian/ aegis. It's HARD to make a perfect adrenaline spike. Eles don't have this problem. All you need is have everybody press the button at the same time.
    Elementalists can spike well. That has never been contested, and unless there is a major change to skills, or someone goes off their rocker, it never will be. That's not the point of this thread, if you hadn't noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    Also necros deal more dmg than eles... through sacrifice!
    Hmm.... Spiteful Spirit doesn't sacrifice health. Shadow Strike doesn't. Vampric Gaze? Nope, in fact it gains you health! Life Siphon? Nope. Sorry, what were you saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    and most of these sac skill is touch. normal necros don't deal more dmg. It makes them very vulnerable, again it also crank up the stakes.
    Er... right. Not going to dignify that with an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    Now there's blood spike. The dps of blood spike is actually rather poor, it's just the fact that lifesteal goes thru anything
    Which was the point, in the first place. Who cares if you could do twice as much damage, if two-thirds of it is mitigated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchiel
    and there're a couple of necroks make this build actually viable. As for curses, they're conditional. Target has to be attacking/casting/adj etc... Otherwise they don't do dmg. Now of course if you do conditional skill you should get more benefit when the conditions are met.
    Consider a skill: whenever target foe presses a key on their keyboard, they take 500 damage. Sure, if they don't press any keys, they don't take any damage. It must not do as much damage as a Fireball, because technically it could do 0 damage.

    In PvE, your argument is moot: you know exactly what the AI will do, there's no "conditional" about it.

    In PvP, you've effectively done damage either way, either through damage taken by their team, or by impacting their ability to do damage to yours.

  5. #35
    GWOnline.Net Member BunnyLord's Avatar
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    Well with the introduction of the Assassin, I think the Ele became less of a powerdealer. The Assassin can really cause serious amount of damage in little time, and also this damage comes in small,separate packages which is good because even with protective spirit it can still kill.

    The Elementalist deals damage in chunks but because of Prot Spirit and now shelter, those damage wont really be a big threat.

    Also I believe before the AOE NERF (PVE), that the Elementalist can deal tiny chunks of damages that will eventually sum up into one big damage. Spells like Fire Storm, Searing and now Tenai's Heat and Breath of Fire can finish off a whole team IF they don't move, but that's the big catch. Ofcourse it cost much, it's AOE, but the energy cost of Ele spells don't really matter especially because of the great energy management of the elementalist + their energy storage attribute.

    In conclusion, I still believe that the Elementalist can still do massive amount of damage (in paper, but because of certain limitations like AOE-Scatter, casting time and recharge times their damage basically goes to waste.

  6. #36
    GWOnline.Net Member Findariel's Avatar
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    It depends.

    As mainly PvE player I don't see the problem. The AoE effect of eles is of course their strong point and depending on the mission/area the battle can be over before you're really out of energy.
    Actually I don't believe that in PvE circumstances, eles deal sub par damage.

    Would be nice if the OP would send me a pm with a link to the article?

  7. #37
    In PvE, with a tank who knows how to manage aggro, and a team that knows how to stay back until the tank has aggro, there are very few skills that can match a Fire Ele's ability to unleash a ridiculous amount of damage. And if you have an ele who knows how to manage energy, that ridiculous amount of damage can go on, and on, and on, and on....

  8. #38
    GWOnline.Net Member Bobinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by um104
    Ele's arent great in PvE anymore, either. SS Necro? FoC Necro? A large range of Mesmer builds? B/P Rangers? They all deal more damage, AND are more versatile than Elementalists.
    This is true, but guild wars isn't solely about DPS. Those builds generally lack the team support an Ele can give. As far as PvE is concerned, too many people rely on solely the 2 monks that they bring to keep them alive and they just deal damage. This is one of the reasons a lot of groups fall, because monks do have limited energy, if you're not stopping incoming damage, your monks will run dry fast. Basing a build off of "Kill first or be killed" has many disadvantages. Sure, the best shutdown for a target is a dead target but you can't kill them fast enough so they don't get at least one cast off (unless you're with 15 henchies, now that's fun ).

    Take the henchies for example while we're on them. They carry things like blood ritual, crippling anguish, grenths balance (Eve rarely uses it ), protectors defense, wards...almost every henchie has some defense that the team can benefit from, ranging from enemy shutdown to self healing. That is why I find henchie groups much more successful than most human groups.

    I won't go into PvP as I'm out of time, I'll post later.

    Quote Originally Posted by TLLOTS
    Not only that, but the manual itself describes them as being capable of doing more damage than any other class, something which is plainly untrue.
    Just to clear this up, the manual says that the ele is capable of doing more damage than any other class in a single attack.

  9. #39
    GWOnline.Net Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiiane
    Yes, for your arguments to be true. Whatever other posters may care about, I don't care what you've played or what rank you are. It's irrelevant, as the persona of any poster is.


    If they expend resources to do so. Skill bar slots, energy. Armor is completely passive, does not use any resources, and works against a far broader spectrum than any ward does. (Oh, and by the way - Elementalist with Ward Against Melee, compared to a warrior with their armor: who goes down faster when hit by Fireballs?)

    Of course there's no tank in PvP, because people will hit the weakest targets. That's still no justification for making your entire team weak targets.


    First of all, you might want to read the post more carefully, the base damage for a hammer warrior with 16 weapon attribute is 20.8, or closer to 21 DPS. Not too far off, but it helps your credability if you get the correct number.

    You did, actually, use resources for that wand damage: the energy to cast the Conjure enchantment (negligible, granted), but also, the skill bar slot to bring that Conjure spell. That's 12.5% of your capability you sacrificed to do that damage. In addition, while you do more damage wanding with Conjure than a warrior's auto-attack DPS, as soon as you start casting spells, you stop wanding. A warrior's auto-attack DPS is added to their skill usage.


    Which is neither here nor there, because you're pitting an elementalist with skills against a warrior without, which is exactly the point that had already been made: an elementalist must use many more resources than a warrior to produce the same result.


    Irrelevant. Warriors with assassin secondaries render the prediction argument pointless, and traps are only as effective as the inverse of the capability to deal with them. Why do people bring traps and other warrior hate, if they're not scared of the warriors? If elementalists were more capable than warriors, you'd see much less warrior hate and much more caster shutdown. It exists, there's just no need for it.


    I'll refrain from taking offense to that, in the interest of keeping this a debate and not a fight. Instead, I will state that I think it's silly to generalize as broadly as the above statement does, because what constitutes a "good warrior" or "good elementalist" is a very free-form definition, and thus the requirements to fulfill it are free-form as well.

    That said, why should the difficulty of playing a class be equated with it's power? Are you now arguing that elementalists are underpowered across the board? After all, if they're so easy, according to your logic they should be.


    With mobility skills to back them up - and after all, if you don't go to thr frontline, it's going to come to you anyways. Your point?


    Actually, it'd be the midline, to be precise, which is exactly where the enemy's warriors are, and in range of their casters, as well - this isn't a British infantry battle where the opposing sides stand off from one another and fire volleys into the other's ranks to see who falls down first.


    A single ranger with Broad Head Arrow? An assassin with Temple Strike. A warrior with Skull Crack. Sure, they're skills that are never used. Ever wonder why? Because due to the lack of threat from elementalist damage, it's not worth it to specialize that much. There is plenty of worth, however, to specialize to counter warriors because they are powerful.

    Costs so cheap? 15 energy for 9-11 seconds of Blindness? There's not a more expensive condition in the game to apply. And it only costs 5 energy to remove it. An elementalist keeping a warrior Blinded will devote a majority of their energy to that task, rendering them useless for much else.


    Elementalists can spike well. That has never been contested, and unless there is a major change to skills, or someone goes off their rocker, it never will be. That's not the point of this thread, if you hadn't noticed.


    Hmm.... Spiteful Spirit doesn't sacrifice health. Shadow Strike doesn't. Vampric Gaze? Nope, in fact it gains you health! Life Siphon? Nope. Sorry, what were you saying?


    Er... right. Not going to dignify that with an answer.


    Which was the point, in the first place. Who cares if you could do twice as much damage, if two-thirds of it is mitigated.


    Consider a skill: whenever target foe presses a key on their keyboard, they take 500 damage. Sure, if they don't press any keys, they don't take any damage. It must not do as much damage as a Fireball, because technically it could do 0 damage.

    In PvE, your argument is moot: you know exactly what the AI will do, there's no "conditional" about it.

    In PvP, you've effectively done damage either way, either through damage taken by their team, or by impacting their ability to do damage to yours.
    Lol ok I really really disagree with a bunch of points there.

    1) Spiteful Spirit. They deal 37 dmg, if they use a skill/or attack. And only deals 37 dmg to adjacent, not even nearby adjacent enemy. And... can be removed.

    So a) It's conditional. b) It's removable. c) It's only 37 dmg, which isn't much for "spike" dmg. And honestly w/o spike in PvP it's hard to kill anything. It does give pressure but it's easily removable.

    2) Shadow Strike is at best 110 dmg and it's highly conditional if health is above 50%. Let's compare the two

    110 dmg above 50 every 10 seconds (shadow strike) vs. 142 dmg unconditional every 5 seconds. 2 Seconds cast on both.

    Or...

    55 dmg under 50 every 10 seconds (shadow strike) vs. 142 dmg unconditional every 5 seconds. 2 Seconds cast on both.

    Pls pls tell me how shadow strike can even be considered a better, much less a good skill isn't because you suffer from class envy.

    The only way necro can unconditionally deal the kind of dmg ele does (or better) Is by going touch, using dark aura bomber. But note this means going melee and any ele going melee, using pbaoe is going to do the same kind of dmg. MM doesn't count, corpse isn't a reliable resource and is readily exhaustible, much more than your energy supply.

    3) Come on, nobody can honestly say that daze isn't so much more expensive to apply than blind.

    Broadhead Arrow is 25 energy vs. 15 e blinding flash. Then of course you argue that ranger has energy discount, but so does ele, up to 80% with dual attunement and an array of other energy mngment.

    Temple Strike is 15 energy vs. 15 e blinding flash. Ok sounds good right, until you look at the recharge. 25 secs vs. 5 secs.

    Have you seen anybody using daze in PvP lately as opposed to blind? Here's a hint for ya it's not due to the lack of threats from eles, because it counters all casters, not just ele. The problem is they cost so much in both ENERGY AND.. AND RECHARGE that they aren't usually worth bringing, this is unlike blinding flash.

    Have you seen/been in an organized GvG? Ele can spike so hard that ppl drop left and right before the monk has a chance to react. And especially because they can organize to spike all at once, in a 1 second window. Warriors do NOT do this. They have to chase the target, get around traps, a bunch of other messy details.

    4) The ease of playing a class should be proportional with the reward. Why? Because the harder it is to play the class the more opportunity there's to make mistakes.

    Take assassin, caster armor, going to frontline. Sure they can deal crapload of dmg, but if they're careless for a splitsecond, they're toast, oh so toast. And it's that kind of risk that stop ppl from taking assassin into their group. Yes they're awesome spiker, but they're also awesome spiked.

    Not to mention assassin also use up all their energy ver quickly. And getting energy thru crit strike isn't as reliable as ele alternative. Especially since you've to go back in and out of fights.

    If eles want to deal as much dmg, they can. Go pbaoe, and have fun, use dbl dragon and what not. Then you'll be dealing with every issue an assassin has to face. Energy issue, caster armor at melee range issue, snares, target moving away... etc. Good thing you don't have to deal with blind.

    You want ele to deal more dmg than that? Well the stakes had better be higher. Such as losing all your energy, and suffer exhaustion etc. Or even going to melee range the way assassin does, or double exhaustion I don't know. But ele has it easy, their spike is MUCH more ***reliable*** than adrenaline spike. This is also why their dps is lower. Reliability is also the reason why their dmg isn't higher.

    Same thing in PvE, eles still deal more dmg, more reliably than necro. Spiteful Spirit is tricky. You need to make sure your tank knows how to gather agro. The AoE from ss is pathetic. And ss also doesn't KD the way meteor shower does, hence stopping dmg from being dished to your tank.

    Know your class better. Yes there're 1 to 2 skills that can be fixed (which class doesn't), but the class as a whole is fine. They've long distance KD, they have wards, armor spells, speed buff, they've fast recharging blind, weakness, snares, aoe, pbaoe, the best energy mngment and spike. Eles are versatile enough. The class is fine. Learn to play. Sorry I had to say that. But seriously all this envy against the necros is ridiculous. I play both (ele and nec) eles are still the more reliable, all situation dmg dealer.

    Quote Originally Posted by BunnyLord
    Well with the introduction of the Assassin, I think the Ele became less of a powerdealer. The Assassin can really cause serious amount of damage in little time, and also this damage comes in small,separate packages which is good because even with protective spirit it can still kill.

    The Elementalist deals damage in chunks but because of Prot Spirit and now shelter, those damage wont really be a big threat.

    Also I believe before the AOE NERF (PVE), that the Elementalist can deal tiny chunks of damages that will eventually sum up into one big damage. Spells like Fire Storm, Searing and now Tenai's Heat and Breath of Fire can finish off a whole team IF they don't move, but that's the big catch. Ofcourse it cost much, it's AOE, but the energy cost of Ele spells don't really matter especially because of the great energy management of the elementalist + their energy storage attribute.

    In conclusion, I still believe that the Elementalist can still do massive amount of damage (in paper, but because of certain limitations like AOE-Scatter, casting time and recharge times their damage basically goes to waste.
    Yes the potential for huge dmg is there. Shelter and protspirit does counter much of eles dmg.

    However prot spirit isn't a very good counter in organized PvP. Ele is aranged dmg dealer. How do you think the monk is gonna know which target is "next"? And in 1 second if a couple of eles attack together, that target is dead. And it's easy to pull perfect spike with a team of eles.

    Shelter is a harder counter vs. ele. But then warrior has displacement too to struggle against, which can easily foil spike after spike and shuts down adrenaline.

    Comparing assassin vs. ele. Yes assassin is the best dmg dealer, bar none. Even warrior. But they've your armor - 70. Going into melee and suffer from the stuff that warriors suffer. Including blind, interrupts (yes if they get interrupted in their lead, they're so screwed, otoh eles can still fire another spell) Please don't envy the assassin until you actually play one.

    Assassin is difficult to master, much more. That's why a lot of assassins are horrible, and why it's hard to even get into a group PvP or PvE. Ppl just don't want to take the risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobinator
    This is true, but guild wars isn't solely about DPS. Those builds generally lack the team support an Ele can give. [/B].

    There you have it bro!

    GW isn't all about dmg. 1 of the complains about assassins is that they don't support the team really well. And before you ask... so... well roll an assassin, and see how easy it's to get a group, much less the kinda group you want. Hint: Not very.

    So yeah they've got huge dps, and spike, but so what? They don't support the team very well and you think there're many ppl who like that?

    Eles have many KD and KD is shut down. If you ever play a monk you know that KD from gale is really a *****... it's the stuff that kills you. It's also the stuff that lets those warriors with giant axe catch up to you coz you're KD-ed from range. The same ele can also play blind bot, etc.

    Eles are fine folks, get over it. shock arrows need a buff though, no argument there. Same thing with mind spells, the exhaustion + conditional dmg is a killer. Maelstorm also needs a snare buff or something. Yeah there're a couple of spells here and there that're worthless or subpar. But which class doesn't have them?
    Last edited by Aiiane; 20-08-2006 at 20:24. Reason: added content from old doublepost/triplepost

  10. #40
    Yeah five copies of meteor shower on one mob tell me they aren't useless...

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