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  1. #11
    You're wrong about the aztecs actually. They forced smaller tribes in their territory which they conquered to be sacrificed or have their entire tribe destroyed. Thus they had a ready made supply of sacrifices who didn't have a choice if they wanted their families to live. It was this distrust that the spanish used to defeat the aztecs using those dissadent tribes tired of huge tribute and sacrifices as an army and wipe out the aztec civilisation. Just as the tribes were in turn wiped out by diseases carried by the spanish that they wern't immune to like the spannish - thus the land was clear for the main spanish people to move in.

    Also don't forget the white mantle stopped the release of the titans and stopped the titans destoying everything.

  2. #12
    Hmm... I wonder if we'll get to see White Mantles in Nightfall too!

  3. #13
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_s..._Aztec_culture

    Here is some information on Aztec human sacrifice, for those who are interested in learning more about it.

    ****
    Quote Originally Posted by Sable Phoenix
    Sorry, but I don't think it does.

    Whether culturally dictated or not, there are certain things which are inherently right and which are inherently wrong. Killing people who have done nothing to deserve death, for no other reason but that someone else tells you to, definitely falls into the latter, regardless of the personal beliefs of the murderer.

    The moral relativism which seems to have become so popular in our society over the last few decades really irks me. There are absolutes in the universe. You can debate that gravity is relative all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that it is an absolute. The same applies to murder as an evil act.

    The actions of the White Mantle, regardless of whether or not they believed them to be justifiable, were evil.
    Some books you may want to read: Deviance and Medicalizaton by Conrad and Schneider, and The Rich Get Richer and the Poor Get Prison by Reiman. Those are college-oriented text books specifically dealing with the subject of deviance and social control, which explore the emergence of deviance, and the different views or moralism that emerged.

    Long story short, you are still judging moralism by modern religious standards. For instance, Catholics believe it to be a mortal sin to kill oneself, while in Budo-Shinto traditions of East Asia, it is perfectly acceptable in certain circumstances.

    "Moral relativism" is only new because people are becoming educated enough to examine other cultures in comparison to what we now view as taboo or wrong.

    As a scientist, researcher, or just curious investigator, it is your job to look at things objectively aside from the moral glasses that our cultures and societies have placed in us. "Right and wrong" have no place in science. We can explain how something is done, why it was done, but we cannot justify it, or assign it a moral standard.

    Let's look at a practical example: the mentally ill. In the middle ages and into the early 17th century, mental illness was viewed as a spiritual disease and was largely handled as a clergical issue. However, as new medical understanding emerged, physicians and the medical field in general began to shift away from the moralist view of mental illness, to a functionalist view of it.

    That is just western culture, and I could write several papers on the topic going further in depth than that.

    Let's look at another example: The Pope recently quoted a 14th (IIRC) century scholar who called the teachings of Muhammad "evil" because at the time, Islam was being spread "by the sword". Literally, Arabs rode into Northern Africa and slaughtered people for not converting to Islam. Does that mean Islam is a fundamentally evil religion? Absolutely not.

    To judge anything as good or evil, you must first have a moral compass from which to judge. Because there is no universal religion or universal moral compass, you cannot make the claim of universal morality.

    It is commonly accepted that eating people is wrong, I doubt anyone here will disagree. However, some tribes in the central rainforests still practice cannabalism. Why? Because that is what they've done for eons.

    You are confusing delinating moralities with sociological acceptability. In other words, just because something is okay in one culture, does not mean it should happen in all cultures. That, however, does not give one cultural perspective the right to sit in judgement over another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theo Kosyo
    How about the Crusades, does this make Christianity/Catholicism evil based on your logic? You don't see anyone going around saying how "wrong" they were. Hell some people even praise them, does this mean these people are 'evil'? Were Germans evil because they believed in utopic ideas through the final solution? Were russians evil for thinking communism would be utopic? Were Americans evil for believing in Manifest Destiny?

    See the pattern?
    Good examples, but they also highlight an important issue: some groups enter into things with the knowledge that what they are doing is wrong. **** Germany for instance. Hitler very likely believed himself to be the Antichrist (his regime followed much Bibilical dogma on the subject, and he himself used Antichristo imagery). Saddam Hussien is another example. These people did what they did knowing they were doing evil. In their minds, it was justified, but they were doing "evil" based even on their religious and cultural principles they followed. It is fine to measure good and evil based within a cultural perspective, upon those following that perspective, but it is irresponsible and completely unscientific to do so from the prespective of another culture.

    We know the White Mantle did what they did because the Mursaat ordained it to be so. To men like Hablion and Dorian, who built their entire lives on this faith system, it was expected of them, and to them, they did nothing wrong.
    |||Quintus Antonius Adepphius Philologus Tyrianicus Canthacus Elonacus Durheimus|||

  4. #14
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    Jahiri, I removed your post. Let's becareful about making implications about modern religious practices, and modern religions. We will not start a discussion about real world present day religion or politics. Especially not by saying some of the things you just said.
    |||Quintus Antonius Adepphius Philologus Tyrianicus Canthacus Elonacus Durheimus|||

  5. #15
    "like facist governmental systems, such as those in WWII, we are able to define a good/evil deliniation." But even this is culturally dictated, the same people who say fascism was pure evil are hesitant to speak in criticism of Soviet or Chinese communism that killed a lot more innocent people than the fascists. Communist dictatorships are "good" they will say.

    With the White Mantle it is even more difficult. They worshipped a nasty little set of tin gods, but they did provide a social order and decent lives for the vast majority of the people in Kryta. Take away the white mantle and probably chaos and death on a major scale followed.

    For a real world White Mantle, think of parallels to Saddam's government in Iraq? But I won't go there. I'll probably get modded anyway.

  6. #16
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    Feel free to make the comparison, oakwine, so long as it is accurate, unbiased, and educated.

    I do not want to talk about religious beliefs, or poltical affliations, that's all. Things that are violatile like that.
    |||Quintus Antonius Adepphius Philologus Tyrianicus Canthacus Elonacus Durheimus|||

  7. #17
    So basically, gravity is not absolute, because we're studying it from deep space.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius
    We know the White Mantle did what they did because the Mursaat ordained it to be so. To men like Hablion and Dorian, who built their entire lives on this faith system, it was expected of them, and to them, they did nothing wrong.
    I'm sure they didn't believe they were wrong. Who does anything that they truly believe is wrong? If you've ever looked at Mein Kampf you'll notice that not even Hitler believed he was doing anything wrong.

    That doesn't change the fact that their actions were evil.

    Your position is basically saying that the genocide practiced by Hitler and the ****s, or Stalin and Lenin with their mass murders of Russian people, or the Salem Witch Trials and the burning and drowning of women based on nothing but superstition, or the Inquisition's falsely theological tortures and executions, or the White Mantle's murders of the Chosen... none of these were evil unless one chooses to view them as evil. If you choose not view them as evil, well, then they weren't.

    That sort of tacit endorsement is repugnant.

    The actions of the White Mantle leaders were evil.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sable Phoenix
    So basically, gravity is not absolute, because we're studying it from deep space.



    I'm sure they didn't believe they were wrong. Who does anything that they truly believe is wrong? If you've ever looked at Mein Kampf you'll notice that not even Hitler believed he was doing anything wrong.

    That doesn't change the fact that their actions were evil.

    Your position is basically saying that the genocide practiced by Hitler and the ****s, or Stalin and Lenin with their mass murders of Russian people, or the Salem Witch Trials and the burning and drowning of women based on nothing but superstition, or the Inquisition's falsely theological tortures and executions, or the White Mantle's murders of the Chosen... none of these were evil unless one chooses to view them as evil. If you choose not view them as evil, well, then they weren't.

    That sort of tacit endorsement is repugnant.

    The actions of the White Mantle leaders were evil.

    How are you comparing morality to gravity? They are no where near comparable. Morales are dictated by a value system. Such as a human life has value, therefore ending a human life is wrong.

    Value is not an observable and testable quality. Infact, the only reason murder is "wrong" is because we believe it is. Because we as people tend to value human life.

    There is no right, no wrong, no good and no evil. Those are just things we believe in. Like beatuy. It exists in the eye of the beholder. If you believe otherwise, you need to question your grasp on reality.

    Personally, I believe that sharing your opinions with others based on a logic system that cannot differentiate between objective and subjective reality is evil.

    Ten Lashes for you.
    Last edited by jhffmn; 27-09-2006 at 20:39.

  9. #19
    Well, let's see.
    At the start, we learn the White Mantle started as Krytan Military force against the Charr, founded by Saul D'Alessio, who brought tales of "Unseen Gods". They then hold of the Undead attacks on Kryta to protect the citizens.
    We first notice something may be fishy at the Bergen Hot Springs Murder. We later notice something is way off when we see Hablion butcher chosen on the Bloodstone with a nice Cyclone Axe.
    When we kill Hablion, Dorian rallies the rest of the White Mantle to avenge his death (we also see new White Mantle with "I will avenge you!" at that time <.< ).
    By the time we make our way to the Shiverpeaks again, the White Mantle have already invaded those lands as well, and chased the Shining Blade there. There seems to be a battle going on between the Stone Summit and the White Mantle at first (Iron Mines), but they seem to work together at THK (though they don't really attack together, you basically fight different waves of different ennemies).
    /end White Mantle Synopsis

    Are the White Mantle evil? Not really. Why not? It seems only high-places leaders of the White Mantle know of the killing of the chosen and participae in it. Lower ranked troops only do what they're told, which was for the largest part keeping the piece in Kryta and killing the undead. When you kill Hablion, Dorian twists the story so it seems you murdered one of (in their eyes) greatest leaders. Hence, they seek revenge for it. In their eyes, you're the bad guy, and you can't blame them. The Shiverpeak army seems to be the more higher ranked White Mantle, with a few lower classed soldiers but at least the people that had already seen the Mursaat and know what they're doing.
    Krytans were apparently greatly manipulated by the "media", by lack of a better term. The highest authorities are the Justicars and Dorian, all favored by the people since they protect them and saved them from the Charr. The Shining Blade was portayed as killers of the Chosen, which came in handy since they had to die anyway and it made a good coverup.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sable Phoenix
    Your position is basically saying that the genocide practiced by Hitler and the ****s, or Stalin and Lenin with their mass murders of Russian people, or the Salem Witch Trials and the burning and drowning of women based on nothing but superstition, or the Inquisition's falsely theological tortures and executions, or the White Mantle's murders of the Chosen... none of these were evil unless one chooses to view them as evil. If you choose not view them as evil, well, then they weren't.
    Let's do this another way. Is there anyway to prove something is evil. Can you give me a mathematical formula to say Person X is evil because this equation shows a quantative link to a universally accept mathematical link to evil?

    If you can do that, sir, you have just revolutionized science, religion, politics, and morality in one swoop.

    That is why it is lunacy to say morality is like gravity. We can measure gravity, and whether you are in deep space or on Earth, there is a tangible, unchanging equation that dictates how gravity works. That equation can be taken to Venus, Jupiter, Alpha Centurai, and it will work. Morality can most certainly not. That is exactly how wars start.

    You use the examples quoted above, I disagree. In both the Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials, they were doing what they did because they believed they were doing the work of God. In fact, both those things were discussed in those books I recommended. They are the products of a changing society, not of some universal morality.

    Stalin did what he did because he thought it was what he had to do to make his "glorious Motherland" work. In his eyes, he was justified in doing that. People like Hitler know they are doing things that will be considered evil, and do such things because they view them as evil.

    However, as I've said, morality is not the realm of science. It is up to religion, law, and the individual to determine what is moral and what is not. Understand, that I agree with you as a person that the idea of a lack of morality is repulsive, however, you cannot and should not infuse morality into science. As I've explained, science tells how something happens, why something happens, it cannot say if it should happen, or if it is justified in happening. Science is not suppose to dictate culture, nor the reverse. Although there are those who try to do this, pure science can never tell us if something is moral or not. When examining a culture, modern or historical, real or fake (in a game, in this case), you cannot be bias, as this bias is not scientific. That is the issue here.

    An opinion is not a scientific measurement.
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