White Mantle - Good or Bad? *Spoilers*

[Ranger Nietzsche]

Quick note: The Mursaat and the Stone SUmmit in THK will attack each other. This is most easily seen if you do the Bonus and refrain from killing anything.

On Relativism, just cuz the Pope said relativism is evil, doesn't mean it is. The Pope also equated Led Zepplin, ACDC, and the Eagles. Clearly this is nonsense as the Eagles don't hold a candle to ACDC and Led Zepplin.

On intentional evil, I disagree with QA that some people want to do bad things. Since I don't want to get into a "thing" here I'll just say I pretty much agree with Socrates' arguments in Plato's "Meno" dialouge.

Are the mursaat evil? No.

Consider this. We, the players, are the Chosen referred to by the Flameseeker Prophecies. The Mursaat have been keeping the door closed for at least 2 years when we begin in Ascalon, but probably more. Now, if the Mursaat HADN'T been keeping the door closed by slaughtering innocents, the Titans would have been released BEFORE the players were there to stop them destroying the entire world.
So we see the Mursaat were preventing the Apocalypse through somewhat distasteful means.

Consider this. The Flameseeker Prophecies also said the opening of the door would destroy all of the Mursaat. Now, it is unlikely that the entire Mursaat race is currently at war, they must have a civilian population somewhere (this isn't Robotech after all). So if they hadn't kept the door closed and somehow the titans manage to not negate all existance, they would still have murdered every Mursaat civilian.

Finally, consider this. The Flameseeker Prophecies take a very Greek idea of Naive Fatalism towards future events. Namely that some important things are inevitable but the details can be fudged. E.G. greek mythology see Oedipus. In this context, the Mursaat didn't EVEN HAVE A CHOICE. They were as much bound by fate as we were to open the door. Even if they had wanted to, they couldn't have not guarded that door and kept it closed. In fact, they couldn't even have not wanted to. Leibniz has a good example of this kind of Determinism in his "Discourse on Metaphysics"

[fakuro deathblade]

good in the sense that they kept the scepter from lich bad in the sense they killed lots of innocents

[Zion Farbow]

Man i have nothing to say but..QA U ROCK!! :D

[Quintus Antonius]

Haha, thanks Zion, as much as I'm flattered by that comment, please try not to editorialize like that. Everyone here is equal. Thankfully, we are able to come together and have an intelligent conversation. In my opinion, everyone here "rocks", whether they agree with my theories/opinions/hypotheses/policies or not. I'm very proud of the lore community here at GWO. Wouldn't trade you guys for anything.

[False Visage]

Good and evil is far too subjective to adequately describe the Mursaat. They may have been doing something that was important perhaps, but alternatively the way they did it was morally wrong by our standards. Perhaps the Mursaat see humans as a lesser being and akin to animals, so they weren't murdering someone but since our perspective is that of a human they were doing something evil by murdering innocent people on the Blood Stones. It's just as important how you do something, as what you're doing.

[Zaxares]

Good and evil is far too subjective to adequately describe the Mursaat. They may have been doing something that was important perhaps, but alternatively the way they did it was morally wrong by our standards. Perhaps the Mursaat see humans as a lesser being and akin to animals, so they weren't murdering someone but since our perspective is that of a human they were doing something evil by murdering innocent people on the Blood Stones. It's just as important how you do something, as what you're doing.

That's a very good point, False Visage. It may be that the Mursaat do not consider humans to be equals; heck, they may not even consider humans as sentient beings, and therefore give no more thought to killing a human as most of us would give to squashing an ant.

[Quintus Antonius]

Griff, I deleted your post. You are not in trouble or anything like that.

To all users: I do not want this thread to be a moralistic analysis of major world events, past and present. Such is a highly volitile topic, and does not relate directly to Guild Wars lore. Please try to avoid editorializing. If you wish to discuss moralism and history, please do so in the Off-Topic Forum.

[Hlub Koj]

Of course white mantle ARE the good guys. Look at their armors, its all white and shiny lol

[Смерть]

The White Mantle are both good and evil. For example, the Chosen might think the White Mantle are bad, while the Mantle believe they are in the right. As QA pointed out, whether they are good or evil is answered in who's shoes you are wearing.

But I will say that the White Mantle are evil as we all should, since we are also of the Chosen, and are not backing the White Mantle's activities.

Though, looking on it in the Mantles shoes, are they evil? Are those Mantle associates who once served the other gods evil as they have turned away from what they held in belief beforehand? From the truley converted Mantle the answer would be no. But what about the not yet fully converted Mantle? The Mantle who has a lingering sense of devotion to the gods? This would be the only case I could imagine where the best possible chance that a Mantle member would even consider their cause evil or not, could in fact take place.

But being a Chosen myself, the White Mantle are evil.

[NeoSaber]

Basicly what I think it comes down to is are the White Mantle evil or do the ends justify the means?

I think the White Mantle were evil, and that "deep down" they knew it too.

They wouldn't be lying about the fate of the chosen if what they were doing was acceptable by the standards of their society (Kryta). They knew they had to lie to people in order to carry out what they wanted to do. To tell the truth would have led to a revolt and possibly their downfall. If their cause was really "just" in their society, they wouldn't be concealing their actions and blaming others for those actions. They'd be open about it.

If all of Kryta had agreed to support them, and the chosen volunteered to be sacrificed on the bloodstones for the "greater good", then by the standards of their society we probably couldn't call them evil. That's not the case though. The Mantle lied and manipulated to accomplish their goals. From their own perspective, what they did was wrong in their society.