White Mantle - Good or Bad? *Spoilers*

[Sable Phoenix]

However, as I've said, morality is not the realm of science. It is up to religion, law, and the individual to determine what is moral and what is not. Understand, that I agree with you as a person that the idea of a lack of morality is repulsive, however, you cannot and should not infuse morality into science. As I've explained, science tells how something happens, why something happens, it cannot say if it should happen, or if it is justified in happening. Science is not suppose to dictate culture, nor the reverse. Although there are those who try to do this, pure science can never tell us if something is moral or not. When examining a culture, modern or historical, real or fake (in a game, in this case), you cannot be bias, as this bias is not scientific. That is the issue here.

Ah, I see what you're saying now. There was a misunderstanding. We don't actually disagree at all.

The problem here as I see it is that you (the general you, not one person in particular) are trying to approach a fundamentally moral idea from a scientific viewpoint. This is where we get into trouble. You're right, scientifically there's no valid way to prove that the actions of the White Mantle leadership were evil. That does not change the fact that they were, however. This is where science fails. You can use its inherent neutrality to justify all sorts of heinous things.

If this discussion is going to be approached from an exclusively scientific perspective, it doesn't belong here.

[jhffmn]

So how exactly are you determining that their actions WERE evil? If not science then how? If I disagree with you, how are you more right than I am? Can you prove it?

I'm still waiting for some proof of theese so called moral absolutes. Just saying that there are moral absolutes doesn't make it so

This is where we get into trouble. You're right, scientifically there's no valid way to prove that the actions of the White Mantle leadership were evil. That does not change the fact that they were, however. .

Actually, it DOES change the fact that the leadership was evil. Now we may consider their actions evil. But until you prove to me scientifically the existance of evil, im not buying it.

[heman]

IMO good and evil is relative to ones own morality. If ones morality dictates that killing people is evil, then to that person it is. An individual's opinion of the mantle being evil is based on the individual's moral belifs. That is only right by the individual and those that have the same moral beliefs. However, there is no one set of morals that is right or wrong and to claim moral superiority, as QA alluded to, is how wars are started.

I think that the person in this thread that stated "does the end justify the mean" is closest to being "right" in this situation. The simple answer is...it all depends on how you look at it based on your "morality lens."

Take it for what it's worth...it's just my opinion

[Zarfol]

Well, IMO, the Mantle were killing the chosen for the greater good.

So I think they are/were good, but in a twisted way.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

Found another reason why Mursaat aren't evil.

The chosen weren't innocent. Now in the case of the characters this is debatable.

However, for the average krytan chosen they are not innocent. They WILLINGLY trodded off with a group of people that declared the 5 true gods did not exist. They committed the worst possible sin against the pantheon. Their sacrifice was divine retribution of an angry Balthazar against these heretics.

You wanna talk moral absolutes? How about the absolute evil of denying the true gods.

/fireandbrimstone off

[Quintus Antonius]

Alright alright, this topic has gone on long enough. People are getting a bit hot under the collar and we are just arguing over personal moralistic ideals at this point. I'm going to close this thread for now.

[Gmr Leon]

Reopening this thread because I think it can create some interesting discussion and I think we can maintain civility on the matter. That and it is quite relevant given the fairly recent events that took place in the War in Kryta.

[Alaris]

White Mantle. Bad. Just look at their outfit. Enough said.

[BrettM]

You've necroed a thread from a couple of years before I even started playing GW, so I haven't gone back and reviewed it yet. But, I can't imagine why I should. Could there possibly be anything to debate at this point?

Whatever the White Mantle started out to be (and I'm willing to believe the intentions of Saul D'Alessio were good), they turned to evil.

The Mantle committed many small sins of corruption, enriching themselves to the detriment of their people. That is evil.

The Mantle committed the bigger sin of slaughtering innocent people. They tricked people into meekly following them into the jungle by promising a great reward, then tied them up and cut their heads off while denouncing them as heretics. Then the souls of the victims were imprisoned in a way that most were driven insane. That is evil. There is no possible excuse for such behavior, and it was not done by some rogue element within the Mantle but by their leadership.

And, of course, there is the biggest sin of all: putting their own casters into those outfits. Brrrrr. Got to agree with Alaris on this one.

[Gmr Leon]

Brett, there is no necroing here. But yes, there's no real need to review the earlier parts of the thread, especially considering that any response you may have to their arguments or points will be null, since most of the users who were discussing this are no longer active.