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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    Like any political system, it is hard to define a group as purely good, or purely bad. In rare cases, like facist governmental systems, such as those in WWII, we are able to define a good/evil deliniation. However, what is considered good, and what is considered evil are largely products of the people and cultures through which they are judged. Deviance is universal, but there is no universal measurement of deviance.

    Thus, we can look at individual actions of the White Mantle and say "Yes that was rather mean of them" but we can never truly judge them good or evil because that is simply not how it works.
    First of all, I would like to say that in no way I will be defending the national-socialism or the Shoa (holocaust). I am absolutely against any such event.

    Then, I would like to make two statements, that might seem off topic but in my opinion will contribute to this thread.
    • Italy did not send any Jews/Gipsies/... to concentration camps until B.M. was freed by A.H. and became his pawn
    • By your definition in a later post, you state that the White Mantle are doing what their religion tells them. While the holocaust was not dictated by A.H.'s religion, is it not possible that he actually believed in the fact that they were an evil that needed to be destroyed, even if this belief was because the man was crazy (cf. Stalin at the end of his life, making Jews enemy of the Soviet state)?


    To project this onto the White Mantle:
    From a modern Western point of view, what they did was evil. However, in their eyes, it is the best thing they could do. To stay in the WWII time-period, a popular saying with revolutionaries was "Sometimes we need to sacrifice for the greater good". The White Mantle actually believe that, by killing the Chosen, they can save the world.
    To be even more of a pain in the ***, I would like to finish this little text by an eternally circling paradox: Everything is equally true, when looked at from it's own perspective.
    Last edited by Guided Daggers; 16-03-2011 at 21:06. Reason: Fixing typo's

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Daggers View Post
    The White Mantle actually believe that, by killing the Chosen, they can save the world.
    This excuse is not sufficient. They are treating other human lives as property that they can use or dispose of as they please. The means were not justified by the ends. (Something that Livia needs to learn before she becomes as much of a monster as the worst of the Mantle.)

    Many cultures of the past, and some of the present, have treated some of their members as property. Those cultures often even believed that this was moral behavior. Villains are never villains in their own eyes, except in comic books. I think we need not feel ashamed to call this kind of thing evil.

    That some members of the White Mantle were good people who were blind to the corruption does not make the organization any less corrupt.

    Recommended reading: "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula Le Guin (PDF file). A fine short story that is very pertinent.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Daggers View Post
    From a modern Western point of view, what they did was evil. However, in their eyes, it is the best thing they could do.
    Do we really know this?
    We know what they did. We know their justification - but do we have any indication that they ever actually tried another way?

    I might agree that sacrificing people was the best they could do. But there is a difference between "killing people on the bloodstone to repower it" and "slaughtering innocents while degrading them", which is what the Mantle did, IMO.

    They had the power of religion behind them. Why not explain to the people that their gods need sacrifices in order to protect Kryta?
    Surely you'd find enough people willing to do so?

  4. #44
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    The Mursaats and WM were trying to stop their own prophecy from happening, but instead ensured the success of the prophecy. If they didn't kill the chosen there won't be Shining Blades. And then the hero probably wouldn't have ever gotten to the Ring of Fire.

    The Mursaats use the humans as puppets. They clearly have no love for the humans. The WM killed the very people they swore to protect to appease their gods. Both are evil and their destruction is justified.

  5. #45
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    I'm sure the WM would have found voluntaries if they had said what they truly were doing. Remember, many would sacrifice their lives to save the masses.

    The fact that they lied and abused their power... and the crazy outfits...
    == Alaris & clone ==
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    You can tell the quality of life of people by what they complain about

  6. #46
    Ingroup and Outgroup psychology plays an exceptionally pertinent role in this discussion. From a distance the White Mantle seem like an evil theocratic dictatorship murdering innocents. However as a member they may well seem like the lesser of two evils if they can keep the Charr at bay, so the equation is not quite as simple as people are portraying it. Our society suffers exactly the same thing and our gross hypocrisy has been on display during the Arab uprisings because of the fear that the contagion will spread to the Saudis. What does that mean? Well massive oil price spikes, which we wouldn't want the Western consumer to suffer. We are guilty of the same moral double standards.

  7. #47
    False flag acts are about as bad as it can get. . .

    The most extreme positive judgment you could hand the White Mantle now is that they are misguided, but I think it's very clear that whoever is guiding them is not a credible force for good.

    Knight of the Skyward Eye might be a fair example of what I'm talking about:

    Spoiler


    it's been forever since I've posted a Magic Card

  8. #48
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    Inquisitor Lovisa: ...and that, children, is the story of how Saul D'Alessio drove the charr from Kryta."
    Missing Child (?): Yay Saul!
    Missing Child (?): I wanna be a White Mantle when I grow up like you, Lovisa.
    Inquisitor Lovisa: Oh my darling children, I'm sure you'll all make fine White Mantle, as long as you remember what I've taught you.
    Inquisitor Lovisa: Who remembers today's lesson?
    Missing Child (?): I do! I do! "Roy-al-ist are bad people who tell lies and worship false gods. The White Mantle protect us from them, just like they protected us from the charr."
    Inquisitor Lovisa: Very good! You'll make a fine Justiciar some day.
    Missing Child (?): Wow, a Justiciar!
    Inquisitor Lovisa: Just remember, little ones: the Unseen Ones are always watching you and everything you do...
    [Party Leader]: Lovisa, we've come to rescue these children and return them to their families. Stand down!
    Inquisitor Lovisa: I have already rescued these children from their ignorance. They now know nothing but love for the Unseen Ones and for me.
    Missing Child (1): We love the Unseen Ones. We love Lovisa.
    Missing Child (2): We love the Unseen Ones. We love Lovisa.
    Missing Child (3): We love the Unseen Ones. We love Lovisa.
    Missing Child (4): We love the Unseen Ones. We love Lovisa.
    Missing Child (5): We love the Unseen Ones. We love Lovisa.
    Inquisitor Lovisa: Children, these evil people want to take me away from you! Give me your strength so I can defeat these heathens.
    White Mantle kidnapping children and brainwashing them. I'm sure there's a "good" explanation for that...

    Inquisitor Lashona: "In the name of the White Mantle, everyone in this settlement is now under arrest!"
    Captain Greywind: "We've done nothing to deserve this! We've lived in peace with the Krytans for years!"
    Captain Greywind: "Have you forgotten so soon? Your own Justiciar Hablion granted us this land."
    Inquisitor Lashona: "I think it is you who is forgetting. Your countrymen gained his trust through lies and deceit, and were even welcomed as Knights of the White Mantle..."
    Inquisitor Lashona: "Only to cut down our dear Hablion in cold blood, and murder the benevolent Confessor Dorian and his high council."
    Inquisitor Lashona: "You Ascalonians have brought your own twisted sense of peace to our land, and I assure you that we will hold you accountable for those villainous actions! Peace...hah! What a travesty."
    Inquisitor Lashona: "Commander, place these filthy refugees under arrest."
    White Mantle Zealot: "Listen up, you Ascalonian trash. Drop your weapons and come with us. Now!"
    <player name>: "Your fight is with us; leave these people in peace!"
    Inquisitor Lashona: "You are all hereby sentenced to death for the crime of high treason. Men, leave no one alive!"
    White Mantle sacking a peaceful village simply because a decade ago it was helped founded by "traitors". I'm sure there's a "good" explanation for that...

    "The White Mantle's most effective and feared interrogator, Inquisitor Bauer has tortured countless innocent Krytans in his urgent yet never-ending quest to uncover plots against the government. Currently, Bauer is practicing his interrogation techniques on mergoyles and passersby in Scoundrel's Rise.
    White Mantle torturing innocent Krytans to uncover plots against them. I'm sure there's a "good" explanation for that...

  9. #49
    Some are good, some are evil.

    The good are mostly dead (Saul) or not knowing the full situation (Gavin, Franklin, and Karriya, the PCs fall into this too). But overall the order is evil, as shown by Hablion and the WiK leaders (the three inquisitors, Toriimo, and Isaiah).

    @jdog: For that Bauer quote, do remember that's Shining Blade propaganda. The official site's War in Kryta quotes are hardly fact, well except for what people say/believe in the lore. Just look at the White Mantle's page and the comments on their enemies.

  10. #50
    I've been thinking about this for a awhile.

    The white mantle now are evil, they do what they do for nothing more than power and greed. They might have once been doing less than good things for reasons that they though were right but now the Mursaat are gone the stones are charged for a long time. The reason for their founding is gone, but they are staying to punish and destroy anything that doesn't agree with them that's evil.

    I don't think the mursaat were evil just taking the easy way. After the war sealed Abbadon in the DoA as a jail and created the door the Mursaat must have been the guards. Things went well for a while but the magic wained and the lock weakened. At that point the Mursaat had some choices. Fortify a position at the door and fight anything that came through or find some way to recharge the stone. They chose the latter and so they needed sacrifices and declaired war on their neighbors to do it. Now we as inteligentt beings have the right not to be sacrificed and we stopped the deaths. the result was the release of the titans and the ultimate death of the Mursaat. Now had the Mursaat come to people sooner and explained the situation we might have helped hold the door, and the Murssat would still be alive. They didn't so they were destroyed as a race.

    In the end we did the right things, we stopped the killings, we stopped the titans and we did what the Mursaat should have done; which is go into the foundry and destroyed it. Therefore, we live as a race.

    Finally I bet Malayx would have been a nice source for charging the stone.

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