Abaddon/Mursaat connection? (SPOILERS)

[vivalabail]

wait, is there proof the Seer is a margonite? if there is, can I please see it, im curious

[Quintus Antonius]

The forgotten custodian armor has legs and arms, with the body shape of a human. The jades have no legs at all, and only small arms. The caster mursaat use robes, nothing to base armor around. The custodian armor pretty much appears to be large human armor, which doesn't say anything about being the mursaat or not.

Looks pretty damn similar to me. It has fake wings, the current Mursaat have real wings. This is mostly likely because the armor belong to the Mursaat before they had real wings. I mean honestly, look at the evidence. Don't just argue because you want to say I'm wrong.

Koss is related to Rurik, they are both humans. The margonite spellcasters, on the other hand, all look similar enough to mursaat to be considered related. (they float, use wands and staffs the same way, have winglike things coming out of the same body section, and float in a similar position). Thiis may just be a repeated use of shape, similar to shiro'ken, but it does seem odd that that particular shap would be repeated through two different chapters.

No, the same argument applies to Rurik and Koss. They wear different armor, they are different ethnically, and their mannerisms are different. Basing it off how something moves alone is not a basis for an argument. Both the Mursaat are Margonites were likely human at one point in time anyway. Your argument is flawed logically. You claim the armors are not similar enough to be considered Mursaat, yet they are a 98% exact match! But the Margonites that look something like 30% like the Mursaat are suppose to be related? That is a very hypocritical argument.

If the mursaat ever were associated with abaddon, it would be a long time ago, enough for their appearence to change over time as they left that association behind, so that the mursaat we see today won't appear in the realm of torment.

No mention of them, none. So let's review. According to your argument, something which looks almost exactly like the Mursaat cannot be related to the Mursaat, while two things, one of which has no mention of the Mursaat whatsoever, and the other which only has the relationship of a barebones minimum of movement and looks must be related.

I honestly don't follow your logic.

Margonite's are Abbadon's "Children", the very first ones fought alongside him in the first War of the Gods. The ones we fight are slightly modified versions, created by Varesh.

Both Margonites and Mursaat are minions of Abbadon's [unwillingly in the case of Mursaat, true], so it'd only make sense for them to share similarities.

And the Seer is a Margonite, for anyone who was wondering.

Yes, I know he doesn't look just like the Margonites ingame, but remember, these are fresh ones, whereas he looks like the old ones, that are probably extinct. The floating should be enough for anyone to realize that, no?

Wrong. We fight the original Margonites as well. They are in the Desolation. Described by the game as "the first and most loyal Margonites that fought alongside Abaddon as he stormed the gates of heaven." They look exactly the same, they are just a higher level and have Blades of Corruption as well as some other demonic units with them.

As for the Seers being Margonites. If they serve Abaddon, why didn't they know about the Titans?

wait, is there proof the Seer is a margonite? if there is, can I please see it, im curious

I'd really like to see it too, vivalabail.

[Blazing Liger]

Wow, just wow. I'd never seen the Mursaat and enchanted armor side by side like that. I don't think there's any way anyone can deny the similarity between the two.

As for the Mursaat having any connection to the Margonites or Abaddon, I don't think so. The Margonite Warlock's extra appendages remind me more of tentacles or something than wings. And floating isn't much of a connection. Wind riders float and so do some enemies in the Jade Sea. Doesn't make them related.

[vivalabail]

man, Quintus, you really just disproaved everything Minionman said, and you had the proof and a very nice counter- argument, major kudos to you man =D

[Elessar Thranduillion]

The whole "Mursaat serve Abaddon" argument doesn't hold water for the simple reason that they sacrafice themselves to try to stop the Titans once they are released, and that they fight so hard to keep that door shut. If they were trying to "conquer Tyria for their master", it is likely they'd have aided the Lich, not fought against him, it is also likely that they'd just let the Titans do their thing, rather than fight a losing battle that cost hundreds of Mursaat lives and did nothing to stop the Titans. Logically, with regards to the evidence we have, the Mursaat cannot currently be serving Abaddon.

Oh, but they can. If they serve the Lich/aid the Lich, they then serve/aid Abbadon, seeing as the Lich serves/aids Abbadon. It's simple, no?

Both the Mursaat are Margonites were likely human at one point in time anyway. Your argument is flawed logically. You claim the armors are not similar enough to be considered Mursaat, yet they are a 98% exact match! But the Margonites that look something like 30% like the Mursaat are suppose to be related? That is a very hypocritical argument.

What on earth possessed you to say that Mursaat and Margonites were likely human at one point in time? A few posts above the one I'm quoting you said that Margonites are slaves. Where did you get that idea? I have seen Varesh summon/create them with my own two eyes. How can you tell me that is not true, then?

Wrong. We fight the original Margonites as well. They are in the Desolation. Described by the game as "the first and most loyal Margonites that fought alongside Abaddon as he stormed the gates of heaven." They look exactly the same, they are just a higher level and have Blades of Corruption as well as some other demonic units with them. As for the Seers being Margonites. If they serve Abaddon, why didn't they know about the Titans?

That quest slipped my mind. It's the one with the Siege wurms, no? And I never said Seers serve Abbadon. The fact that I was baptized as a christian does not automatically mean that I believe in and worship Jesus Christ, does it? They [the Seers] may be renegades, trying to help players and not Abbadon. Maybe they like humans. Maybe not. We'll probably find out once C4 comes out..

[Durza the Shadeking]

Oh, but they can. If they serve the Lich/aid the Lich, they then serve/aid Abbadon, seeing as the Lich serves/aids Abbadon. It's simple, no?

But...the Mursaat never served or aided the Lich. You remember hw WE were the ones killing mursaat and helping the Lich. Then we fight him later and so on....

What on earth possessed you to say that Mursaat and Margonites were likely human at one point in time? A few posts above the one I'm quoting you said that Margonites are slaves. Where did you get that idea? I have seen Varesh summon/create them with my own two eyes. How can you tell me that is not true, then?

Becomes it says the Maargonite Civilization orignated off of Marga Coast and accoarding to the "Gate of Madness" Mission it says they loved Abbadon so much that they defaced the other statues. He then transformed them and they waged the war agains the 5 gods.

[Elessar Thranduillion]

But...the Mursaat never served or aided the Lich. You remember hw WE were the ones killing mursaat and helping the Lich. Then we fight him later and so on....

Please read my first quote of Antonius' carefully. I didn't say that. He did.

Becomes it says the Maargonite Civilization orignated off of Marga Coast and accoarding to the "Gate of Madness" Mission it says they loved Abbadon so much that they defaced the other statues. He then transformed them and they waged the war agains the 5 gods.

Could you please show me where it says that the Margonites originated off of Marga Coast? And the mission doesn't say he transformed them. Nuh uh. And I still saw Varesh animate about 4 of them.

[Ithildin]

I merged your posts. During the hour that the edit button is active, please try to use that.

***

The whole "Mursaat serve Abaddon" argument doesn't hold water for the simple reason that they sacrafice themselves to try to stop the Titans once they are released, and that they fight so hard to keep that door shut. If they were trying to "conquer Tyria for their master", it is likely they'd have aided the Lich, not fought against him, it is also likely that they'd just let the Titans do their thing, rather than fight a losing battle that cost hundreds of Mursaat lives and did nothing to stop the Titans. Logically, with regards to the evidence we have, the Mursaat cannot currently be serving Abaddon.

Sorry about that. :)

But as I said that they had served as a possibility. One set created for Abaddon on a personal level, the Margonites. The other to act as possessors of the physical lands, the Mursaat. Perhaps I should have been more clear of my own thoughts rather than throw out possibilities.

So, I do hold that both are created by Abaddon. Both were servants of his. When the war of the gods ended, Abaddon was imprisoned along with his Margonite servants. The Mursaat were still free on the lands. When he was imprisoned, he lost his control upon the Mursaat, who then gained free will. Over time, they develloped spectral agony and how to become unseen 'gods'. Knowing their former master, they also knew how and where to weaken his prison. Which is why they guarded against the doors from being opened. They had betrayed their former master for their own glory and power. If he got loose, they knew they were doomed. The Lich was out for power, pure and simple. From the way he acted, I doubt that he even knew of Abaddon's existance, or perhaps considered it an uncomfirmed faery tale, until he was cast into Abaddon's realm in the afterlife and saw a new way to gain power once more, especially since the Lich had unknowingly set into motion the weakening of Abaddon's prison. If one does not killing innocence in the way of the Chosen to not be evil, then I suppose that the Mursaat were not evil. But, they wanted their presense to be concealed and it is known that the Chosen could see them for what they were. I consider this to be an act of evil befitting former servants of Abaddon. While I do not consider them AS evil as the Margonites, they are evil in their own right. Before they were freed from Abaddon's hold, they were still affected by his taint as he turned evil. As for the wings, I believe that the Mursaat were created with them, and the Margonites were jealous/envious of such a thing and tried to replicate it by using it in the armor creature.

[Blazing Liger]

Please read my first quote of Antonius' carefully. I didn't say that. He did.

Uhhh, no he didn't. Where the heck are you getting this?

The whole "Mursaat serve Abaddon" argument doesn't hold water for the simple reason that they sacrafice themselves to try to stop the Titans once they are released, and that they fight so hard to keep that door shut. If they were trying to "conquer Tyria for their master", it is likely they'd have aided the Lich, not fought against him, it is also likely that they'd just let the Titans do their thing, rather than fight a losing battle that cost hundreds of Mursaat lives and did nothing to stop the Titans. Logically, with regards to the evidence we have, the Mursaat cannot currently be serving Abaddon.

Could you please show me where it says that the Margonites originated off of Marga Coast? And the mission doesn't say he transformed them. Nuh uh. And I still saw Varesh animate about 4 of them.

She did not animate them, she SUMMONED them from the RoT, same as the demons (like Drought and Hunger). As for the Margonites' origins, 'Margonite' is derived from 'Marga.' Tyrians come from Tyria, Canthans come from Cantha, Elonians come from Elona, and Margonites come from Marga. Fairly simple stuff. Although I have not gotten this far personally...
*SPOILER*



Abbadon transforms Varesh, giving her six eyes (like him) and generally makes her more Margonite-looking.



*/SPOILER*

Margonite's are Abbadon's "Children", the very first ones fought alongside him in the first War of the Gods. The ones we fight are slightly modified versions, created by Varesh.

Both Margonites and Mursaat are minions of Abbadon's [unwillingly in the case of Mursaat, true], so it'd only make sense for them to share similarities.

And the Seer is a Margonite, for anyone who was wondering.

Yes, I know he doesn't look just like the Margonites ingame, but remember, these are fresh ones, whereas he looks like the old ones, that are probably extinct. The floating should be enough for anyone to realize that, no?

I think the burden of proof should be shifted to you.

Where are you getting this idea that Varesh 'created' the Margonites we fight? She is not a god, and is thus incapable of creating life ex nihilo.

What makes you think the Mursaat serve Abbadon, when they in fact fight his servants (Lich and Titans)?

Why do you think the Seers and Margonites are one and the same? Connecting those two is nearly as sketchy and impossible as connecting the Margonites and the Mursaat.

If you're so convinced that you're right, then prove it.

[aptaleonII]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minionman View Post
The forgotten custodian armor has legs and arms, with the body shape of a human. The jades have no legs at all, and only small arms. The caster mursaat use robes, nothing to base armor around. The custodian armor pretty much appears to be large human armor, which doesn't say anything about being the mursaat or not.


Looks pretty damn similar to me. It has fake wings, the current Mursaat have real wings. This is mostly likely because the armor belong to the Mursaat before they had real wings. I mean honestly, look at the evidence. Don't just argue because you want to say I'm wrong.

I disagree with this single point, i agree with Minionman here (though not on most of what he says, i'm afraid). Looks are simply not enough to base this on, as there is no other proof going for it. It's a possibility, and i HAVE read what you have said on the matter, but simply how they look is not evidence. Enchanted look much more like shadow warriors, but we don't all say "they must be related" because it's just too farfetched. If i must go by looks alone, i would still not be convinced. Enchanted are only in the warrior and ranger proffessions (as the Forgotten are spellcasters), whereas there are no mursaat warriors or rangers at all, they use jades to make up. Furthermore the Enchanted are clearly made for walking, and even if the mursaat had the ability to land and walk, the enchanted are clearly not built for it. The armours of a race that can float would be lightweight and agile, and we never once see an enchanted armour leave the ground. I have read your posts that speak of the Mursaat travelling to the crystal desert, ascending, gaining the power of flight and shedding their old, ground-bound armour, and i think that it is way too much speculation to come from the simple fact that Mursaat and Enchanted look alike. There is no other evidence for it.
When Saul D'Allessio found the mursaat in the maguuma, it says he found a race of godlike figures whose feet never touched the ground. If your theory is correct, then the entire mursaat species must have ascended, and this is a bit of a stretch.