Alright, to give this a little background before you look at it....
I've been getting heavy into "tactics", if you want to call it that, where maneuverability and how your lines moving affect the match - especially where the match is held and overextending your opponent. So I've thought about what gets people to over extend, break the lines, do stupid things....and here's what I've come out with:
-dying characters or spike (your monk is going down, they go for the kill)
-they're dying (they run)
-super threats are ahead
Now the last one is key, and I don't think most people understand this but when there is something out there that is a complete threat to your group you have to go for it....thus the Lure. The whole idea is to overextend their team because they have to move forward to kill something - and it's your job to make them pay for it.
Side note: This has to be played on Isles of the Dead or other such (movement challenged) guild halls - the whole idea is I want to force them through stuff they don't want to go through. The bridges/tar make this map pretty much one of the best for this build.
Alright, so the build:
-The idea is to have a frontline that just barely goes infront of the midline, extending conditions and pressure. The daze/burn/bleed paragon and blind/poison/cripple/burn (burning refrain) ranger......after running this just once in GvG, it's nuts the amount of pressure they spread.
-The midline is pretty empty, making their targets pretty slim. Paragon/Rt heals and does the anti-spike control, as well as keep the frontliners usually healed....all while the Defense ranger setups up his little wall of threat. After he's setup at least 2-3 traps, he moves back to setup the Lure with the main lure ranger (he sets up Lacerate and Toxicity....contemplating on switching Lacerate for the trapper-elite so he can't be interrupted - it's alright, but Toxicity is the big one)
-The Lure! These are those "oh ****" abilities you don't want up on the other team because they screw your guys: Nature's Renewal (all of my enchants are under a sec besides MoR - should be out before this lands though and not a huge problem since it's an AoE hex), Brambles, Toxicity and Frozen Soil (and Lacerate if I keep it). Ward against Foes is up infront, as is a Tripline so anyone who does make it close enough gets knocked down since they had to get through barbed traps and a cripling ranger to get there. Oath shot to reset if you lose some. (You'd be amazed at how Frozen Soil drives an entire opposite team to move)
-Monks are there for your standard anti-spike and healing+condition/hex removal. Gave them both bane signets to stop warrior charges (and knockdown gives 18second bleed) since you don't need smiting prayer stats to make it more effective. One necro has rotting flesh to throw out there on a whim (tempted to drop both of those for more healing, although paragon+3monks is pretty good, with all the trapper/ward defense - need an idea here to fill). There job is real easy with an Incoming! defense Paragon but eh, whatever works.
-Then your typical Mo/E runner - the group can split when necessary, usually the conditional ranger and healing paragon take off (both with nice movement increases) to deal with threats. Most split teams don't have massive conditional removal so they run when facing the ranger/paragon.
-Charging out with nearly a 20second "Fall Back!" of 33% increase of speed is huge in gaining ground when the match starts. Usually I can be setup by the time they show up
-As the pressure mounts from the conditions, you just slowly inch forward making them pay for any sort of advance.
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24-12-2006, 11:03 #1
Another build needing help - The Lure
Last edited by thecarrion; 24-12-2006 at 11:08.
24-12-2006, 18:31 #2
I am going to be as polite as possible here, and even bypass the fundimental flaw in the concept of having a trapper/spirit spam there simply for lure. Everyones first few builds are very bad they just need somone to tell them why.
First I'll go through your spots 1 through 8.
1. Not a bad idea, it's unconventional but theoretically it should work at spreading 3 conditions. You may want to take called shot out in favor of a better spiking skill like marauders.
2. 13 leadership is a bad idea, it isn't a breakpoint for anything and you are just loosing hit points in order to achieve it. Also having your one hex in the build be one like mark is going to do nothing because that hex is going to be ripped very easy. I also question how well this char can sustain the needed "energy output on 2 pips and the only energy management coming from a 5e chant that will get you 1 energy gain.
3. Ian Boyd would be proud. Problems with lacerate/traps asside (lacerate sucks and someone wanding this guy will shut him down on the traps), I can see why this guy would be tempting... he is pure defence though.
4. More spirits and a ward v foes powered on a ranger. Interesting.. if you are that determined to slow everyone down (like it looks to be) you could put a spirit of muddy terrain in and take away their speed boosts too. Also, if you're running oath shot, put in Whirling Defenses. You have brambles with no knockdowns outside of tripwire, why not just put in a barbed trap?
5. You called this guy defense, which is funny because I qualified half of the previously listed chars as defense (I'll get into this later). Again you have leadership at an odd number, fix this. You also have him not bringing a res sig in favour of him having a heal. It's fine to run with 3 res sigs and a hard res but you tried to put res sigs in odd places but not here.
6. Don't use watchful breeze on a monk... ever, give him a condition removal, and possibly a hex removal so that he doesn't rely on the other monk for absolutely everything. Do not put res sigs standard backline monks. "Hang guys, I can't heal you because I need to spend the next 3 seconds resing and I can't rip that hex because I had to put a sig on my bar" The idea of putting bane signet on a backline monk is bad, don't try it. Just trust me, don't. Also, when you named him spike stopper, I expected an infuse health.
7. One of the only things worse than a res signet on a monk is a minion skill. I assume rotting flesh, also a very bad idea, is there because you want the other team to degen more and not your own team to have disease spread among them and cause your toxicity to backfire? Here is a hint, your build can't have the first happen without the second happening. Also this guy has your only hex removal, and has no self hex or condition removal. Draw conditions on him is a bad idea to begin with, draw conditions with them staying on him is suicide. He also has no energy management.
8. Light of deliverence is a better self heal than watchful breeze so it isn't really needed/wanted. Don't try and run heal party and light of deliverance on the same bar. Don't try and power blinding flash off of a monk just because his secondary is ele. Gale is.... *shiver*
General problems: You have no offence, You are just relying on spreading degen and hopefully soloing something down with that paragon to kill things. I question how you think this is pressure when a heal party bot can shut you down. I also question what you are going to do when someone extends as you have no damage other than traps and degen to make them pay with. You listed monks going down as a reason for people extending. Do not design your monks to go down, this is bad strategy. Just because a char has a secondary, do not try and make them both their primary and secondary class. You want them to be their primary with a little ultility from their secondary. You also have no frontline, this is a bad idea. Your opponent won't need to extend when all they have to do is reach a ranger and beat on him till he's dped out and they can likely hit your monks while still being in ranged of yours, and your monks will be hard pressed to keep themselves up.
There are a lot more problems with this build, I just don't want to spend the time requred to list them all and figured this would be a good place to start.
24-12-2006, 20:19 #3
^^ excellent points
in just about every pressure build you have at least 1 sig of humi to shut down either their heal party or condition/hex removal depending on how you plan to pressure, without it heal party/lod/divert hexes/rc eats pressure builds alive.
i suggest you watch a lot of obs to see what the top guilds run b/c if they run it you know it works
24-12-2006, 21:15 #4
Alright, major changes....
1. Condition harassing Paragon is now a bit more offensive and energy efficient....Soldier's fury, Blazing Spear, etc. He always had 14 leadership also (11+2+1), not 13.
2. Wall of defense ranger, gained Trapper's Focus over Lacerate and gained Ward/FrozenSoil. Unless I'm mistaken, Muddy Terrain affects everyone so you can't use speed boosts...if it only affects foes, I'd use it. This also means he can move closer now to setup traps so they're a bit more pushing.
3. In comes the signet harass - the whole point of him is to massively spread fragility covered by conjure and accumulated pain as much as possible (also adds deep wound to the mix). Signets cause damage and harassment through humility, and energy gain through Symbols of Inspiration. Might need a little tweaking here....but with the 2 condition spreaders and these hexes/fragility, the other team is at constant max degen plus the spike from loss/gain of conditions.
4. The 2 monks are now more standard: b-light and ZB.
5. Runner went back to normal, albeit I knew this guy was a mess because I'm so used to Aegis on the runner. Restful breeze is actually really nice, +10 regen while you run isn't a bad heal.
I understand what you're saying about being too defensive - the mesmer helped but I'm actually considering dropping a monk. They're on Fire! combined with Incoming!, both lasting double time makes a huge difference on how much damage the team takes (as does the now added Aegis). Maybe some sort of offensive/defensive mix that will replace the ZB monk - he really only needs infuse health and some sort of condition removal to fill the spot of the monk. Maybe this is where the Tainted Flesh necro might fit in...or some more offense.
More thoughts? I probably should have fleshed it out a bit more the first time before posting it but it was like 3am and I was tired...some of that was just dumb mistakes on my part.
25-12-2006, 06:58 #5
Could I suggest focused anger over soldiers fury. The attack speed cap is 33% so soldiers fury and agg refrain together is a waste. with focused anger you will gain so much adrenaline you can spam attack skills at will. also try to bring mending touch over dismiss condition on the runner.
PS I would prefer to use a "your all alone!" W/A ganker over that defensive para.
Last edited by melandrus elite; 25-12-2006 at 07:00.
25-12-2006, 07:10 #6
This is a lot better, going through the build history on this build shows a real transformation, but it still has a few serious problems. One of which being that you're not doing damage you're just stacking degen that won't stack past an effect -10 on any one target. Your minimal dabling into hexes is just at the level for any balanced build to deal with.
26-12-2006, 02:33 #7
Alright, fixed the Paragon harasser (considering giving him GFTE just for more energy gain) and maybe a self-heal like Leader's Comfort.
Changed the runner from dismiss to mending touch.
You guys all say there's not enough offense, and I agree....-max degen across a team is a lot to deal with, even for most 2 monk teams with the mesmer spiking random people but I need some change. I'm afraid that if I drop the defensive paragon that I'll have problems with spike with only 2 real healers.
Maybe replace one of the monks with some sort of "burning" spreader so They're on Fire means more? Right now it's not that great since I've only got 2 means of spreading flame and they're short at best. Basic Searing Flames emo to replace one of the monks, and give the defensive paragon another heal like ballad of restoration or mending refrain?
You guys all say I need more offense, so how about some suggestions? Since I have 2 paragons already, getting tempted to have another and adding that -energy chorus and some more echos. Maybe another offensive paragon thumper with Awe with the -energy shout he can spam like crazy?
Last edited by thecarrion; 26-12-2006 at 02:38.
26-12-2006, 02:58 #8
I have an idea. Change your Mesmer into a Sword War with Sever Artery, Gash,(barbarous slice too if you really just want to spread conditions, although it won't help in a spike as much)and for elite I say either Crippling Slash since it will be covered up by all the conditions or Dragon slash for spamability.
Reason? The Mesmer adds 2 hexes that although are spamable are easily taken off as quickly as they are applied. Mesmer adds little damage but nothing compared to what a War could do for your team.
Also you can get Lacerate back because of 2 bleeding spams(with toxicity can be some major degen from just 3 sources). Use Trapper's Speed to get the traps down faster if you are looking for something like that.
26-12-2006, 02:58 #9
ditch the mesmer hexer b/c you don't have enough heals for hexes to work effectively...prob for a sf ele
and i'd switch burn/bleed paragon for a sword warrior, that way you get melee pressure and he can spread bleed/deep wound
26-12-2006, 04:27 #10
This build is still at the point where you will be hurting your guild to try and run it. You need to learn builds that work and why they work before you try to run a build of your own. If you want a conditions build then I suggest you run the factions popular melendru's/crip shot build for a while and learn why it works. Playing the build you have listed will teach you very little and lead to a lot of losses.
Te ran one in game 2 against WM in the world finals (they lost but that isn't eh point) and you can find it in the gwshack build library where your build is hosted. You'll have to drop the attributes in on your own but it's a good start. Just update the thumpers to use Rampage as One and the pet attack that dazes (wild blow would also work on one), change the secondary on the rangers (due to the distortion nerf and insertion of natural stride, this also frees up a slot since natrual stride is a running skill too. Screaming shot or a spike damage skill would fit well) swap in current meta monks (because of the inspiration nerfs), throw a little more pet punishment on the death necro (death nova, maybe a profane or shambling horror), and you can run your monk also. Just make sure you have a hard res somewhere in the build. You could also watch observer mode until you see a condition build there and copy it for a while.