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  1. #1

    Some noob GvG questions

    Hi, I'm hoping to eventually get in GvG, plus I'd like to at least have a vague idea of what people are talking about, so here are some questions. I'm also interested in build design, all though chances are none of the builds I make will be used... just for personal fun.

    1. What is the point of ganking?

    2. Explain split tactics... What do people mean when they say a map is better/worse for splits (what kinds of things make the map good or bad)? What purpose does splitting have? I thought I remembered seeing a map with 2 flag stands, am I imagining things?

    3. Is there anywhere I can see maps of the guild halls? Even on observer mode I get kind of lost on most of the maps... I know Burning Isle though and I'm getting more familiar with Frozen and Wizard's Isle.

    Some more specific questions...

    4. It seems like people never take some enchantments or long-casting skills because it's too risky, but then I can't remember ever seeing enchantment removal (outside of Grenth) an don't really see interrupts often either. Is this just a metagame issue?

    5. Why am I suddenly seeing so many healing monks (this is outside of LoD runners, which I understand) in high-ranked guilds?

    6. Why do teams (seem to) rely on Monks so much for stopping spikes? Wouldn't it be easier to put stuff like Infuse, Prot Spirit, or Spirit Bond on a midliner, or have midliners disrupt spikes? Plus, midliners can prevent spikes on overextending melee chars easier.

    OK I thought I had more questions but I can't remember them. Maybe I'll remember later and post them.

    Thank you! :)

  2. #2
    1. The same as everything else, to kill the lord! But since this rarely happens the point of ganking is two-fold: to create an npc advantage for yourself at vod and/or to reduce their strength at the stand by forcing them to send people back to deal with the gank, not to mention the confusion it creates in less experienced opponents

    2. Some maps are better for splitting then others, frozen isle (a korean favorite) and druid's isle are the first to come to mind but all maps are capable of being split on, especially now with the weakened flame sentinels on burning isle. Yes the isle of meditation has two flags, a flag stand and an obelisk flag stand.

    4. Yeah its a metagame issue, long cast spells are just to easy to interrupt, especially with all the rangers running around, and any important enchantments are most likely gonna be removed by a good team once they're put up, aegis/pre-prot gets removed from a spike target, etc etc...

    5. I doubt you're seeing 100% heal monks (the only elite heal i can remember anyone running is lod on a stand monk) but you're prob seeing some hybrid monks with maybe lod, infuse, gof, and various prot spells.

    6. Not a good idea. First off the majority of mid liners don't necessarily have the best monk skills and giving them things such as infuse and/or prot spirit will probabely force them to concentrate too much on "monking" and not enough on their main job and secondly they're better suited to help out stopping spikes in a different way, rangers interrupting spike skills, mesmer galing/interrupting, eles blinding/snaring, etc...so when the spike hits it should be significantly lessened by your midline.

  3. #3
    3. Visit the canthan ambassador in the temple of balthazar, he will let you run around in empty versions of the guild halls. You can also play the Dajkeh Inlet challenge mission which is sort of GvG against NPCs only.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by skaspaakssa View Post
    Hi, I'm hoping to eventually get in GvG, plus I'd like to at least have a vague idea of what people are talking about, so here are some questions. I'm also interested in build design, all though chances are none of the builds I make will be used... just for personal fun.

    1. What is the point of ganking?
    In a GvG stale-mate (when the game goes to VoD) a game can be decided upon by NPC advantages when they approach the flag stand. A Ganker is setup to solo all the NPC's but normally not the Guild lord as he has too many HP's for a solo ganker to kill

    Quote Originally Posted by skaspaakssa View Post
    2. Explain split tactics... What do people mean when they say a map is better/worse for splits (what kinds of things make the map good or bad)? What purpose does splitting have? I thought I remembered seeing a map with 2 flag stands, am I imagining things?
    Splitting started a long time ago with War Machine. Many guilds have copied this strategy, and is now an integral part of the metagame. Basically the idea is to either gank NPC's very quickly, including killing the Guild Lord or to avoid getting spiked. It's also used as a tactic in an attempt to confuse the enemy team in to making a poor decision. A good split with good timing can devistate the opposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by skaspaakssa View Post
    3. Is there anywhere I can see maps of the guild halls? Even on observer mode I get kind of lost on most of the maps... I know Burning Isle though and I'm getting more familiar with Frozen and Wizard's Isle.
    Just talk to the dood who sells guild halls for a living. You can roam them to your heart's content!

    Some more specific questions...

    Quote Originally Posted by skaspaakssa View Post
    4. It seems like people never take some enchantments or long-casting skills because it's too risky, but then I can't remember ever seeing enchantment removal (outside of Grenth) an don't really see interrupts often either. Is this just a metagame issue?
    Enchantments are very heavily used. In fact, it's very rare inded to see a healing based monk. You'll find Ageis Chains, the occasional Tainter, Attunements ect...Most spike teams carry Shatter Enchantment on a mesmer specifically to assist with spikes and enchantment removals. You'll also find other ways of removing them as well. I'd say 75% of all interrupts come from Knockdown, 15% of them from Rangers and the rest from Mesmers. Interrupts are a very important part of any sucessful GvG build.

    Quote Originally Posted by skaspaakssa View Post
    5. Why am I suddenly seeing so many healing monks (this is outside of LoD runners, which I understand) in high-ranked guilds?
    I still find it very rare to see heal monks. There were more of them during the Rein of Grenth because Prot was useless. Now that Grenth has gone the way of the dodo, expect pretty much everybody with 2 prot monks.

    Quote Originally Posted by skaspaakssa View Post
    6. Why do teams (seem to) rely on Monks so much for stopping spikes? Wouldn't it be easier to put stuff like Infuse, Prot Spirit, or Spirit Bond on a midliner, or have midliners disrupt spikes? Plus, midliners can prevent spikes on overextending melee chars easier.
    Midline characters will normaly try to stop the spike before it happens, using blind, hexes, snares, wards, knockdowns and interrupts. Monks are there to prevent spikes when they get throught the mid-line defense. If it wasn't for the midline toons bringing adequate defense, the monks would not be able to prevent spike damage at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by skaspaakssa View Post
    OK I thought I had more questions but I can't remember them. Maybe I'll remember later and post them.

    Thank you! :)

  5. #5
    I am going to try to say things that weren't said before.
    1&2. Because these questions are similar I will answer them in one. Ganking is a spit tactic in which you split off some people from your main team to take away some of their npcs. Some people specifically design their team to do this from the starts but alot of times it is simply because of the map and/or they are losing at the flagstand.

    And the purpose of spliting is simple. You split their team up. Well obviously you split your team as well but alot of split teams will start the fight early on their NPCs for certain maps, or split in a way that the other team has to run a long ways to catch the split squad. Druid's isle where one team sits back near the bridge then when the other team comes up they plant the seed and the split squad runs across the bridge is a good example.

    Killing off just 5 NPCs can mean everything in VoD.

    4. Well its a metagame thing. Spikes are all over the place running shatter enchant as the main enchant removal for a spike. Now that doesn't mean don't run Prot spirit just be careful. See a mesmer, see a spike, just use infuse is what I say.

    5. Well LoD is a nice healing skill.

    But WoH got a very nice boost lately. 14 in heal with Word of Healing gives someone around 200hp(with Divine) if they are below 50%. Usually we run a WoH with infuse on him and ZB as secondary monk. WoH heals better then alot of heals out there even without the conditional heal with it.

    I think Glimmer of Light is being used too. Same reason as WoH imo. You can just use it heal the little stuff then infuse. I don't like it though, only a little heal even if it is a fast cast and very fast recharge. One person has said it is an Orison on crack heh.

    6. The monks do heal the damage but they aren't the only way people stop a spike. See while you see someone use infuse on that spike the Ranger is using distracting on one of the spikers hoping to catch something. Or the EarthShaker war just going to town on their midline hoping to either throw off the spike or slowdown when it is called. Obviously most don't do that on purpose but the really good players are looking to interupt the other team's spike as much as they are trying to kill them. Cause hell 700dmg(this is sometimes the minimum damage not the max) spikes need some slowing down.

    And although all those things could go on your midline allowing your monks straight healing..what if your midline is in the middle of its own spike? How is that ele going to infuse if it casting lightning orb? etc.

  6. #6
    Most of the questions have been answered fairly well, so I'll only add a little more.

    1) The main purposes of ganking are:
    To decrease the defense of the enemy at the flagstand, whether this be by forcing them to send a monk back, or decreasing their offense and thus allowing your players to play more agressively. Against spike builds, decreasing their offense is far more important, especially against gimmicks such as Blood Spike which have fairly poor defense if your team can hold against 3-4 consecutive spikes. If trying to split against these spikes though, it is very important to ensure that your gank is able to actually kill the rival Guild Lord, else they won't achieve much if the spike can force your main team to give up the flagstand.
    To gain a slight NPC advantage for VoD - although the benefit/time spent on this is fairly weak compared to merely having one character with Glyph of Sacrifice/Meteor Shower.
    To delay flags ran by the enemy, giving your team more morale boosts and causing the enemy team to have to take more risks in order to stop you from getting them. There is only one map in the game where the flag is not in the base - this is Imperial Isle, and is rarely used (and the flagger is still fairly accessible to a ganker) - so your gankers can almost always force the enemy to send back teams in order to allow their flag runner to run.
    To kill the enemy Guild Lord - this is rare, generally only happening as a last effort at Victory or Death. It forces most teams to pull back suddenly out of fear, and can even earn the kill if they do not act quickly enough or the rest of your team is prepared and able to slow down their monks. For a very short while there was a semi-gimmick involving a player who could solo a Guild Lord within 4 minutes of the game starting.

    2) A few things make maps better for splits or ganks. The first is the distance between the Guild Hall and the flag stand. This affects the time it will take for the enemy to send back people to counter the split or gank. This is especially important if the enemy don't know what you have sent to their base (i.e. at the start of the game), as they don't know how many people (and which) they should be retreating with. The distance between the main fight and the "split path" is important, too. Maps like Burning Isle are surprisingly good for splitting because of this, as the enemy don't know what you will be attacking with (although on Burning Isle the sentinels give them time to realise that you will have sent people to their base). To contrast, on the map Jade Isle it is very, very easy to see what the enemy will be attacking your base with. They are also often in range to be followed and trapped easily, or killed by a spike as they attempt to cross the coral.
    The length of the "split path" is another factor, for obvious reasons.
    There is also the positioning of the henchmen in the enemy base. In Burning Isle, a ranger can attack the enemy Bodyguard the moment he enters their base - while in a map such as Warrior's Isle they have to get past multiple pairs of archers and fight off Knights first. The benefits of each map can change depending on what exactly you intend your split to do - if you intend to control the flag, you want a clear path to where their flag spawns, preferably without having to have Archers or Knights attack you.
    Next is if the map requires a Guild Thief - this is an obvious weakness to any split. Kill the enemy Guild Thief, and they cannot enter your base for up to two minutes (unless they follow one of your players in). Even better is to trap their Guild Thief in your base in a position where he cannot be killed by henchmen, nor will he open any gates. This situation is highly frustrating when it occurs, so almost every gank team will leave the Guild Thief at the lock outside the enemy base. This allows for a swift escape, but also makes him vulnerable to attack if you can push any enemies currently inside your base out.
    4) The spell Shatter Enchantment is still semi-popular, as it can augment spikes very effectively. That said, long cast spells are generally unused as it means that the one in ten teams that DO have a ranger or mesmer to interrupt will have a clear advantage immediately. Even so, there are few long cast time spells that are really worth it - there is usually a lot more space to spread out in during a GvG game.
    6) Stopping a spike is more a matter of observation than reaction, and so it requires someone focusing purely on the offensive players of the enemy. Putting the relevant skills on the midline would force them to multitask two very difficult jobs. It would also make monks have a lot less to do, while still forcing teams to carry two (as in a 4/4 split a monk is certainly needed to defend effectively.

  7. #7
    Okay, since this is a noob thread I'll have my go at noobness. How exactly does the guild ladder work? I'm asking this because a few nights ago, my guild beat a top ranked guild. We're very very far down the ladder, we're not even top 1,000 yet and we beat a guild ranked 130. We only went up 4 spots. This confuses me because I figured we'd move up more than just 4 spots. Can someone explain how the ladder works or redirect me to a thread on it. Thanks :)

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by R A N D O M View Post
    5. I doubt you're seeing 100% heal monks (the only elite heal i can remember anyone running is lod on a stand monk) but you're prob seeing some hybrid monks with maybe lod, infuse, gof, and various prot spells.
    Well I must have been extremely lucky, because I saw quite a few HB healing Monks on Obs Mode this evening... paired with a prot Monk.

    And to the OP: I'm a total n00b when it comes to GvG too, so you're not the only one. I'm probably going to break the ice pretty soon.. but I'll watch the pro's for a bit longer.
    Last edited by Heath Laron; 24-02-2007 at 22:10.

  9. #9
    What types of monks you see depends a lot on when you play. In the states we are pretty much all QQ fanboys and lean towards running a lod/infuse with a RC prot. Against Euro teams you are more likely to run into a 3 monk backline (1 runs but it's still a 3 monk backline in my books) that consists of a healers boon, a SoD and one other. They also tend to power an aegis chain.
    This is all part of the standard difference of European teams siding more towards defence while American teams tend to side more towards offence.

    When running a healers boon monk in the build I prefer to have them as the runner because glyph of lesser has a 30 second recharge that is more than absorbed into the slack generated by running the flag. This enables about 2-4 heal parties (depends on how hard the push to cap is) every time it visits the stand giving the flagstand monks a much needed breather.

  10. #10
    Thanks for the answers everyone :) It'll be a while though until I can actually use any of this though because my current guild is even worse than I thought :\

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