Hmmm necromancers seem comparatively calm in this discussion in comparison to the community discussion... interesting I'd say this thread would have all the rage :)
On SR: It had the nerf coming a long time, ever since Vizunah square was opened to the public imo :-/
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Thread: Soul Reaping
05-04-2007, 00:36 #11
05-04-2007, 00:43 #12
They all have drawbacks, and none of them would I consider to be a decent replacement for Soul Reaping.
Hmm. As noted in the CDF thread, Well of Power is actually a poor skill for the necromancer. It's more long the lines of energy management for the whole party, given its cost. So just pretend like I didn't say that.
Last edited by nkuvu; 05-04-2007 at 02:42.
05-04-2007, 00:54 #13
I think I'll wait to see how it plays out before I start doomsaying.
05-04-2007, 00:58 #14
I think I will personally be fitting Signet Of Lost Souls on all of my skillbars. I want to see this in practice, however I was hoping they would just cancel the soul reaping from spirits. I will judge once I have seen it in action!
05-04-2007, 01:11 #15
Heh, I already *had* signet of lost souls on my skillbars!
Nevermind, I look forward to playing with the changes and seeing how it works out. I would like to see either a slight reduction in Necromancer energy cost across the whole selection to compensate for this though, or better yet energy management that is core and not campaign-specific.
05-04-2007, 02:03 #16
The skill update, should it go into effect as written, will cripple the Necromancer class. It's awful.
The update kills minionmaster, who wolnt have enough energy to cast and heal 25 energy bone fiends anymore. The update kills the ranger B/p teams, which although arguably an exploit of soul reaping, were also the only way a ranger got parties in pvE. (and by Kill, I'm sure the groups still can be run sucessful, but it will take 40-60% longer with a weaker ritualist necromancer and a paragon orders spammer).
Necromancer soul reaping, in pvp, wasnt broken regarding
Ranger skills (Rangers had better energy management than pre-nerf necros)
Warrior skills (Warriors have infinte energy in the form of adrenaline already)
Paragon skills (Paragon energy managment even better than necro energy management. Look at the IQ match where the p/mE spent the whole game spamming 25 energy mirror of disenchantment... a necro could never do this)
Elementalist skills (Loss of runes for spiking too consequential, and Elementalists have good energy options)
Dervish Skills Never seen one
Assassin Skills Assassin energy managment and armor being better than soul reaping, even though old soul reaping triggering on kills and assassin role as spiker has synergy.
Mesmer skills (Loss of fastcasting too critical... neve seen necromancer e-surgers or diversion spammers for good reason)
And for necromancer skills, Icy veins spike related skills were tough and probably imbalanced, but none of the other necrospikes were too high level used (or viable), and even in HA, infinite energy doesnt justify necromancers use necromancer skills on most teams that use the N/Rts and N/Mos. I think that the Necromancer skills were pretty balaced relative to soul reaping. As for Icy veins, the skill casts to fast for something of its power and recharge.. it should have been nerfed.
That leaves Monk and Ritualits skills. The problem here never was soul reaping... it was N/mos and N/Rts using a soul reaping engine to heal and protect.
Perhaps the real problem: "Heals more effective than damage" ought to have been fixed instead.
MM didnt have to die because of N/Mos in Heroes Ascent.
What needed to be done: Necromancer gets 1 energy for every 5 points in soul reaping from a sprit, Healer's boon gets rescaled so it isnt usable at divine favor = zero, effectiveness of ritualist skills gets tied to spawning attribute somehow, and mantra of recall gets buffed to its pre-nerf state.
05-04-2007, 02:11 #17
One thing I'm wondering is how staggered spirit deaths tend to be in PVP. I know in PVE (I also play a rit) that they rarely all die at once, and I somehow doubt this is much different in PVP, unless you have teams trying to take all the spirits down in a very short period of time.
If that's the case, this change doesn't actually make spirit spamming nonviable. It'll likely deliver less energy, but I don't think it'll be enough to make the build useless.
As for the effect on non-MM necromancers, I just think of my normal sequence:
Arcane Echo + SS + SS + Reckless Haste + Enfeebling Blood + Desecrate/Defile Enchantments + repeat SS as needed. I already find on a team with two ele nukers that stuff dies faster than I can lay down many hexes. Now I'm not going to have the energy to lay down the hexes?
05-04-2007, 02:22 #18
This will hit bone fiend necromancers pretty bad, other types of minions still take a hit but less so. (bone horrors and minions are only 15 energy cost, other minions recharge slowly.)
5 seconds does seem too high, though, before trying it out. I agree with the person who suggested 2-3 seconds. In a situation with AoE damagers, or with minions attacking several different targets at a time, it's pretty easy to have a bunch of creatures get killed within the 5 seconds.
(I'm more pissed about the mesmer changes actually, right at the moment I decide to get my mesmer started on nightfall, a bunch of the skills get nerfed, and the character is not very powerful anyway. This is off topic though.)
05-04-2007, 02:23 #19
I don't think MMs will be -that- hard hit by the change even though people seem to always think necromancer = MM in the community discussion forum. Blood necromancers can easily shift to Offering of Blood if they're that heavily strapped, but then they lose access to Spoil Victor or Life Transfer. Curse necromancers are where the change will likely land the hardest since they have no form of energy management beyond access to Signet of Lost Souls via SR without going out of their way to invest in something else for it.
If a person is robbing a store aims his gun at the police when challenged, we wouldn't appreciate the police opening fire on him and everyone around him, bystanders and all, would we? We'd expect him to limit the damage to the problem at hand. I think my main issue with this comes back to the PvP balancing steering the course of PvE play. One could say go play WoW, but frankly I prefer Guild Wars to it because it is far better gameplay. That doesn't mean I want the people who abuse something in PvP to determine how my favorate class is modeled elsewhere though ;)
Last edited by Rakgar; 05-04-2007 at 02:27.Rakgar Fleshrender
Guild Leader of the Souls of Torment [RIP]
05-04-2007, 03:11 #20
I don't want to get into a PvE/PvP discussion so my comment on this aspect will be brief.
PvP requires balance because you have two sides and both can pick their skills and because the two sides are humans that play to have fun.
In PvE, only one side can pick skills. Thus that side can always come up with counters or a strategy that always wins against a fixed deck (guildwars is a card game) and fixed AI strategies. This side is also the only one that is mean to have fun (the mobs don't care if you are overpowered), thus as long as it is possible to make decks that make you win (as explained above) this is a non-issue as well.
The only potential problems are if you are too overpowered compared to mobs to make the game fun. This is unfortunately the case in GW for me where I really only enjoy the PvP, whereas in most MMOs and RPGs I like both PvE and PvP usually.
The other problem and the only real one that usually occurs with balance patches is that many people like routine and thus don't want to adapt their deck, even though they know full well new ones they devise will still be overpowered when it comes to PvE. I was personally quite pissed off when jagged bones was nerfed because my dual MM PvE setup had one jagged bones MM that made a lot of pretty death nova explosions from bone minions. My new dual MM still steamrolls PvE, I just had to change my deck. In the end for people who actually enjoy PvE in GW they should be thankful that PvP causes skill/attribute changes. Otherwise, yes you could keep your routine and use the same deck without ever changing it, but wouldn't you be bored?
P.S: Ok, maybe it wasn't that brief. ^^