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  1. #1
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    True skills and ingenuity vs, cookie cutters and copying

    In the past I have tried to highlight why I think Guildwars isnt the game of skill in regards to pve thats it says it. I realy think the grind for titles, for greens, gold and materials for 15K armour is no different from grinding for levels when it comes to rewarding skill in the pve. True the level cap makes people equal especially for pvp but the grind for the aforementioned items replaces level grind in a very hypocritical way.

    Why..because you dont need any great skill for many of these things, just patience to go through the same grind time and again copying the best builds for farming from guildwiki and most players not using their own ingenuity but just mastering the same old same old guides. And thats where my current gripe lies.

    You see the cookie cutter builds and barely random AI allow for most people to be able to do be good at something they other wise couldnt do if suddenly they were faced with something that Guildwiki hadnt explained to them. The real skill is in being able to adapt and overcome but Guildwars doesnt use a system that requires such ingenuity.

    In the end people are showing off their max damage greens and gold weapons and 15k armour as if they deserve it. Its as if grinding away in a game for just that is some sort of achievement. Reward skill and change the challenge not by making mobs harder to the nth but by puting some randomness in the equation to fool people who just copy what another person has discovered for himself and posted the solution to somewhere.
    Last edited by thehulkuk; 09-04-2007 at 03:00.

  2. #2
    First off, those items you mentioned don't really give you any advantage over people who use 1.5k armor and collector/weaponcrafter equipment. Because of this, those with "ingenuity", as you put it, will generally find themselves more effective than those who "cookie-cut", or at least use a more effective version of the copied build.

    However, on a more supportive note, I do agree with you. I miss the days when people didn't mind when I zoned into FoW with a sword-wielding N/W instead of the usual MM, SS or BiP which I am now forced to play. Looks like the good folks at Guild Wiki are deleting the builds in their builds section, which should effectively halt cookie-cutting and eventually bring about a general accepting attitude similar to the one around the time of release.

  3. #3
    The main problem in PVE as far a missions go is, most other players seem to only make fun if you if you don't bring a cookie-cutter.

    I've always liked to make up my own bizzarre builds to play with.
    It usually results in me getting either booted from any PUGs immediately, or getting harassed and ridiculed by most of the other party members and then booted.
    Honestly, if a persons skillset get's the job done, without too much hassle, it's good by me.

    I agree about general farmers/grinders/whatever though.
    That's one of the reason I've never really been impressed by other peoples "uber 7331" gear - anyone with time or money to spare can have whatever they want in GW. It doesn't make them a better player.

    Personally I've never been one to care about what equipment a player has as long as it works - that's the important part.
    I'm no more inclined to team with a person with FOW armor and 4 weapon sets of uber greens than some guy in "lowly" 1.5k armor and a collector weapon.

    And I definately think more people need to not criticize other players skillbars so much......
    Originality FTW.

    As long as it actually works, what's the problem?
    Seriously - not that I have mind you - but if I ever did run into a wammo with mending and some random smite spells (fun times!) that promptly kicked some serious *** in whatever mission we were doing without dying every 10 seconds and bringing aggro back to the monks, well, he could cast his mending or any other "useless" skills he has to his little hearts content as long as he keeps it up

    To be honest though, I avoid PUGs entirely, partially due to not-so-skilled players thinking they're "teh leetsauce" because the have the afore mentioned FOW and greens combo....

  4. #4
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    i'm more someone that makes the build my self, i dont nead someone els his/ser help since i just look at how i can survive and at the same time help others.
    so yeah, i agree with originality FTW

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by thehulkulk
    I realy think the grind for titles, for greens, gold and materials for 15K armour is no different from grinding for levels when it comes to rewarding skill in the pve.
    Well, a problem is that many PvE players like to aim for something, something achieveable. They want to have aims for end-game. Grinding is achieveable for everybody. People copy a build, read up on a guide, and can suddenly solo FoW Forest. I'm not entirely opposed to this, as long as for general play they do have some of their own ingenuity and always look the improve their build. The latter is rewarded enough I'd say, simply by making your farm run go faster.

    A problem is that PvE requires very little tactics and strategy; yes it requires some, but in PvP at high level you'll need good build, positioning, timing etcetera because your enemies have it too. If you can kill a group of lvl 28 Elementalist casters using only a longbow, Poison and Kindle Arrows, you know they're not the smartest 'people' ever (FoW forest run, the Stalkers) and don't require the best tactics ever.

    That's what really is the difference in skill requirement, and that's one of the things that I hope changes with Hard Mode. that things are grindable isn't that bad, and the copying a build isn't that bad (as long as they improve on it), but I would like to see some more skill come into play.
    Last edited by Akirai Annuvil; 09-04-2007 at 12:28.

  6. #6
    I agree with your point of veiw but have to dispute a couple of the tings mentioned.

    I personally like tring different skills and seeing how they work with others i like. Half the fun is not using the exact same build as everyone else. So I feel your pain as far as party building goes.

    I have nothing against the cookie cutter builds. Some folks dont devote enough time to the game to really be familiar enough with the skills availble.

    As far as the stuff posted on wiki, if it helps brand new players learn the ropes faster, fine by me.

  7. #7
    While I do see the gripe thehulkuk, I'm not seeing the suggestion here. This is the Suggestion Forum, I expect to see a suggestion not just a gripe. Perhaps you could elaborate on what your suggestion might be, otherwise I'm going to have to move this to a more appropriate forum.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehulkuk View Post
    Reward skill and change the challenge not by making mobs harder to the nth but by puting some randomness in the equation to fool people who just copy what another person has discovered for himself and posted the solution to somewhere.
    I think that was the suggestion right there.
    Would bugger up the botters. Two birds! One stone!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by The Pointless View Post
    I think that was the suggestion right there.
    Would bugger up the botters. Two birds! One stone!
    I was expecting a bit more actually. Random! What's random? How is random challenging? How does it affect you?

  10. #10
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    you know cookie cutter are cookie cutter because there (to some degree) good.

    Now I've met quite a few people with good individual builds, and I myself like to use "unique" builds, such as cultist fervor+HP spammer, and Virulence epedmic support, but seldom few people make good builds. Like someone said they like running N/W....well no offense, but I would hate to have you on my team, because you'll be doing like 30 DPS and dieing more then a assassin.

    Cookie cutters exist to prevent people from using fire storm rangers, nuff said

    (oh btw, there are dozens of sites other then GWiki, GWiki just happens to be first on the google search )

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