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  1. #101
    From everything that ArenaNet has seemed to indicate, nothing in EotN was supposed to have been an answer in and of itself; everything has been clues pointing at what will be in GW2. The titan in Sacnoth Valley is likely meant to indicate that there will still be rogue titans showing up here and there in GW2; Justiciar Naveed's quests are meant to indicate that the mursaat will return in GW2. It seems likely that the facets are just meant to indicate the presence of something as well. The question is, what are they pointing to?

    It doesn't seem necessary to suggest that the gods will be returning, so that doesn't seem to be what's being hinted at. It's possible that all ArenaNet is suggesting with this riddle is that in GW2, we'll be able to use the Rift as the interplanetary nexus the lore has always described it as. "Beyond the mists," might indicate the Mists, with the Rift at their heart, while "Beyond the dreams," might indicate the dreams so many have for entering the Rift and the Hall of Heroes there. "On distant shores of a land unwaking," might be as simple as just saying that we'll travel to a new world through the Mists if we can seize them in GW2.

    This is a much simpler answer than I think most of us have been looking for (or, perhaps, wanted to find), and it really is about equal in revelatory power to the quests telling us that the mursaat and the titans are still around which, unfortunately, might mean that it's closer to reality.
    Last edited by Harjubal od Uo; 20-02-2008 at 21:03.

  2. #102
    Hi guys, I am not at all great lore seeker, but something came to my mind so I thaught I would rather ask here, though someone maybe already checked this before, so if this is repeating, I appologize in advance ! So the riddle is :

    An offering to those who seek
    Beyond the mists beyond the dreams
    On distant shores of a land unwaking
    Answers there lie in waiting

    If you remember, there were 2 quests in Jade Sea where we needed to search (seek ?) for messages in magic bottles written on dragon scales, they are :

    1. Message_on_a_Dragon_Scale
    2. Messages, Messages Everywhere

    The location of the quest giver (Samti Kohlreg) is small island in Gyala Hatchery ! So we would have the "distant shores of a land unwaking" !

    "An offering to those who seek Beyond the mists beyond the dreams" - isnt the immortality a thing that is "beyond the mists, beyond the dreams" ? And the quest giver is a sailor who was granted immortality by the DRAGON 210 years ago ! And as we know, the dragons will have one of main roles in GW 2 !

    After all, Facets are dragons, rite ? Also, Samti name has word MIST (or A_MIST) in it !

  3. #103
    Nice find! You live up to your alias quite well Sherlock! I'll have to look into that further.

    Edit: Interesting though it is, it seems to have little relation to the riddle.

  4. #104
    Though, considering the pretty poor fate of the guy, it could be a sort of warning or consideration of the "why" and "what then" questions posed. Perhaps saying that immortality and power isn't all it's cracked up to be, or something.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowReapr View Post
    Though, considering the pretty poor fate of the guy, it could be a sort of warning or consideration of the "why" and "what then" questions posed. Perhaps saying that immortality and power isn't all it's cracked up to be, or something.
    The dragon that granted Samti his immortality was a Saltspray Dragon though, not one of the Elder Dragons.
    In the end, all we have are the stories we can tell. And, if we are fortunate, somebody who will listen. - sylara{Z}
    Zainol the Tainted (N/E) - Brianna Halwind (Mo/Me) - Sir Belidan of Ri (W/R) - Kazumi Ranzou (A/Rt) - Khaemhet Rekhotep (P/D)

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxares View Post
    The dragon that granted Samti his immortality was a Saltspray Dragon though, not one of the Elder Dragons.
    None of us have mentioned it being an Elder Dragon rather than Saltspray. I think you had Elder Dragons on the thought process when posting..

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Gmr Leon View Post
    None of us have mentioned it being an Elder Dragon rather than Saltspray. I think you had Elder Dragons on the thought process when posting..
    That mostly stemmed from Sherlock's mention of "dragons will play a major role in GW2". That is true, but we only know for certain that it's the Elder Dragons who are the pivotal figures in GW2. Given that we won't even see Cantha in GW2 (at first, anyway) it's likely that we also won't see any Saltspray Dragons.

    But anyway, you have a point. It was probably just the way I read into his post.
    In the end, all we have are the stories we can tell. And, if we are fortunate, somebody who will listen. - sylara{Z}
    Zainol the Tainted (N/E) - Brianna Halwind (Mo/Me) - Sir Belidan of Ri (W/R) - Kazumi Ranzou (A/Rt) - Khaemhet Rekhotep (P/D)

  8. #108
    Greetings all,

    I am a long-time player of Guild Wars, starting with the very first public Beta, during the World Preview Event. I have been long intrigued by the subtle stories included in the vast Guild Wars universe, and this one in particular has caught my eye. I get the sense that even larger things are in the works, and this is just another of those small, subtle links in a chain that is MUCH longer than any of us might yet realize.

    Please forgive me in advance for my amateurish rambling, as this will be my first post on this forum.

    The mystery of these cryptogram messages from the spirit at the end of the quest facinates me, and rings bells in the back of my mind that have lain silent since I started plaing the game. They seem to really play into the over-arcing storyline in the lore of Guild Wars, and it ties into an even larger mystery that has sat in the back of my mind since the beginning.

    "What role do Dragons play, and Why?"

    They obviously play a very large role in the GW universe, but we the heroes as 'puny mortals' do not fully understand that role. IN fact, we seem to only scratch the surface, looking for clues, every time we go looking.

    I have read through this entire thread, and the quality of work done here so far has compelled me to add my 'two cents'. I'm not saying I have any answers. In fact, I don't have any. Only observations that lead me to more questions. I will share them here, and hopefully they will help further the discussion. They won't be with the help of anagram analyzers or decryption, just observation and conjecture from within the game.

    The current mystery is about the ciphers which lead to a cryptogram, which lead to Facets of the (now 6) Gods.

    We were told by the quest writer that he likes the idea of us acting as Detectives, and that the What and Why are more important than the where. As any investigator will tell you, the most key of questions is Why. When you know the Why, the pieces will fall into place, and you will have your answer.

    I'll start with my observations, linking me to the larger questions of... Why?

    The translated dialogue:

    An offering to those who seek
    Beyond the mists beyond the dreams
    On distant shores of a land unwaking
    Answers there lie in waiting

    I think this translation is correct, because it's just too coincidental, and has too many good references to Guild Wars, to be a random decryption mistake. If it were incorrect, it would read too much like gibberish for us to understand, or it would be nonsense words. It clearly
    isn't so it's a message we were meant to find.

    "An offering to those who seek" - this line speaks volumes as to Why.

    Here's what it tells us:
    1- Obviously, it's a message to the heroes from a power/being in the game
    2- We know this, because before this higher power can send a response, it must first already know what we are seeking
    3- The response it does give us is a clue, meaning not only does this higher power know what we want, but knows what to tell us to lead us to it.
    4- In order to lead us to these Answers, this higher power must know what the answer is, or failing that, where it can be found. We know that this power knows at least this much, because they then follow up with clues to follow.

    Now, the question becomes... what Higher power is this? More information may be forthcoming if we examine what we faced in getting to this information in the first place.

    The Facets in the quest, leading to the inscription give us our next set of evidence.

    These facets have 3 main distinguishing features.

    1- They are ghostly creatures, more spiritual than physical.

    2- They are dragons, specifically in the shape of Elder Dragons.

    3- They come in a sequential group, each facet pertaining to one of the predominant Gods, or that patron God's domain.

    Does this sound famliar? It does to me.
    We were required to face several rooms/stages, each guarded by a STRIKINGLY similar Facet, in order to reach Glint, an Elder Dragon during the first chapter.

    Now we're getting somewhere. Let's run with this link and see where it takes us, shall we?

    Our first encounter with Facets is just after our Ascension, meaning that in some way or another, the Elder Dragons are by far a 'higher' being than mere mortals.

    This means one of two things.
    1- The Facets are manifestations of some other power, such as the 5 (6?) Gods, and Glint knew how to conjure the use of The Facets to protect her lair. In this case, whatever is behind the GWEN quest Facets is a being of similar power to Glint


    2- The Facets are manifestations of an Elder Dragon's power, in which case, the Facets faced in the GWEN quest have a Dragon's power behind them

    The fact that these Facets appear in the form of a Dragon, and that the Forgotten guard in Glint's Lair describes them as 'Facets of the Dragon', lead me to believe that scenario 2 is more likely the case. This would be interesting, since that would lead us to believe that either Glint herself sent the encrypted message in the GWEN quest, or another Elder Dragon like her did.

    Now what do we know of Glint's power?

    We know that Glint, the Elder Dragon we actually get to meet, foresaw (ie: originated?) the Flameseeker prophecies...which led us to The Lich... which led us to the Titans, both of which were tied to being servants of Abaddon, the fallen God. We know she knew about the Titans, and the secrets of their source. How much she knew, we can only speculate, but the fact she can prognosticate 800 years into the future. That's no small feat.

    Now the next time we encounter an actual Dragon in the GW universe? Well, that's Kuunavang, during Factions. This is also later after we become "Weh No Su", or "Closer to the Stars". Another term for Ascension no doubt.

    It should be noted that the stars/heavens/etc seem to play some kind or role in the Lore, usually in relation to higher beings, or another plane of existance, and reaching that higher plane.

    This time though, the villains are Afflicted. They lead us to Constructs, which lead us to Shiro. Shiro later turns out to ALSO be a servant of Abaddon. Shiro, for some as-of-yet unexplained reason, had a LOT of power. We know this because his death actually petrified the entirety of inland Cantha, which is no small bit of juice.

    Firstly about Shiro... This power likely didn't come from killing the Emperor, he already HAD the power, the Emperor commented on it and this influenced his decision to make Shiro his bodyguard. Where did Shiro get this power? How did he get it? WHY did he get it? These are interesting questions we don't yet really know.

    Secondly about Shiro... Where was Kuunavang when Shiro's presence 'touched' her and infected her? Did Shiro have any previous contact with her? One could assume that Shiro derived his power from Abaddon, but we have nothing more than circumstantial evidence of it. Could it have come from contact with Kuunavang? If not, was Kuunavang attempting to negate his plans like Glint did with the Lich? We know she did once we (the heroes) released her, but why take the chance at being taken whole by him? Was it a power-play between him and her, through the link of the infection? So many possibilities, but no evidence, or even clues, to form a cogent theory.

    Thirdly about Shiro... What makes him interesting in how he relates to all of this, is that he was trying to become Mortal again. This is something that is unique in the Guild Wars saga. Nowhere else do you see any other spirits anywhere in the Guild Wars universe that try to go BACK to being a Mortal again. The question is WHY? Why become mortal again? Why go to all the trouble? What would his goal have been, if we (the heroes) hadn't stopped him? We know that it would have thrown the universe out of balance, but that is presented to us as a side effect. We don't actually know what his real intention was. WHY was this so detrimental to the balance of the universe? This is what really peaks my interest, because of what happens in the next chapter... Nightfall.

    In Nightfall, we start to really tie up loose ends. Abaddon, a mad and fallen god, definitely had a hand in all the events up until that time. What we didn't learn from Nightfall is just about as interesting as what we did learn.

    We know the Forgotten moved into the Realm of Torment to keep him at bay, so that explains where they went, but what about the Dragons? Where are they in all of this? If the whole world really would have ended/corrupted as we are led to believe, why didn't THEY appear anywhere at all in this storyline? If the Titans being set loose and running amok in Tyria got an Elder Dragon's attention, wouldn't the destruction of the ENTIRE WORLD? If Glint can see events 800 years into the future, it stands to reason they would forsee something as massive as a FALLEN GOD being unleashed on the world. However, they are strangely and conspicuously absent from this one. We don't hear so much as a peep from them at all in Elona. This leads me to believe one of two things prevents their appearance. 1- They choose not to appear (in which case, Abaddon was no real threat, which is hard to believe), or 2- They were unwilling or unable to appear, which is much more likely.

    If option 2 is indeed the case, then that means there are either very few, or NO Dragons left...OR the ones that ARE left are preoccupied with an even bigger threat. We have no evidence of Elder Dragons being involved in small, trivial matters, given their prophet-like status among the 'lower beings'. This leads one to believe that any Elder Dragons that are still around, have large matters they are currently working on...or at the very least...lying in wait to act upon.

    Then we move to GWEN. We get Destroyers which are pretty mysterious. We know that the Dwarves' whole mythology revolved around the Great Destroyer, whom we finally meet, and destroy. But again, this all seems familiar to me.

    I seem to recall the last time we fought lava-born supervillians, they just turned out to be lackeys for something even bigger and meaner. In fact, the whole GW saga seems to be a lesson in escalation from one bad guy, to a bigger bad guy, who leads to something even more terrifying. The GWEN endgame cutscene makes it abundantly clear that something even bigger and badder is out there.

    In addition, let's take into account that the 5 prominent Gods did not bother to replace Abaddon after he was imprisoned for untold millenia or however long it was. Once defeated however, a replacement God WAS made, in Kormir. One must surmise if they could get by without a 6th God being in play for so long, why transfer Godhood to another being, effectively bringing one more God into play? If balance is so important in the universe, where the re-mortalification (if that's a word??) of Shiro would have caused the universe to tear itself apart, what about the change from effectively 5 Gods, to 6? This seems like a much larger fundamental shift, so that means something else as-of-yet-unknown must have shifted out of balance, to warrant bringing in a 6th God. Just how big would such a shift have to be?

    Now that is a thought to chew on for a while.


    No matter what all this is alluding to, it is clear that what we are dealing with is only the tip of the iceberg. They are wetting our palettes and it is working ...on me, at least. I will be continuing to look for clues on this mystery, and given the replies from the man who wrote the quest, I am quite sure there are answers to be had.

    We may not know what they are until they are revealed, but that just adds to the fun of attempting to solve the mystery, doesn't it?
    Last edited by Chet Ingram Kabak; 13-07-2008 at 09:03.

  9. #109
    well, i think that they actualy stated in the MotW that glint was NOT a elder dragon.....

  10. #110
    Movement of the World: Glint and Kuunavang are as different from the Elder Dragons as night and day.

    Jeff Grubb: Glint and Rotscale are shadows of the Elder Dragons.

    What we know of Glint comes from her.

    Shadows implies similar but different, like a shadow of their former self. Especially on the wording used (if Jeff said they are in the shadows, then it would be like the Movement).

    What I find most interesting is that Rotscale is on par with Glint and Kuunavang. Wouldn't have thought that until Jeff said that, to be honest.

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