How dead is HA? I have proof

[kongkingx]

IAS stacked well beyond 33% back then.

It stacked beyond 33% when it was just a fun build to play (8 warriors or 7 warriors + 1 necro) for the kicks. and was fixed.

Then the trio of trappers+warriors+necros came after the fix.

Something being beatable does not mean it's balanced. It's based on risk:reward and effort:reward. IWAY was high reward for very little risk, skill or effort.

and if iit's not overpowered, it doesnt necessarily mean that it's balanced. because you're ignoring the possibility that it is underpowered.

The meaning of overpowered is common-sense. If you kill a guild lord using a single skill or you own every team there are using a single build with ease, that's clearly overpowered.

If you lose to 3 groups all of the time even using that overpowered build of yours, well your build is not that overpowered anymore because technically, everybody can now own you. All that the scrubby whiners must do is to play like those 3 groups who always beat you.

It's like defining an uncrackable algorithm. Only 1 solution is needed to say that the algo is crackable and if there are no solutions, it's uncrackable.

Says you. Kind of funny that the majority of good tombs players hated IWAY, and complained - not because it was hard to beat, but because it gave terrible players a brainlessly easy way to farm fame and devalue what everyone else worked hard for.

The only people who hated IWAY were scrubs and spikers. Period.

[woot im a warrior]

The only people who liked IWAY were scrubs. Period.

Fixed.
1234

[B Ephekt]

It stacked beyond 33% when it was just a fun build to play (8 warriors or 7 warriors + 1 necro) for the kicks. and was fixed.

Then the trio of trappers+warriors+necros came after the fix.

Nope, same update as OoV and Eviscerate.

and if iit's not overpowered, it doesnt necessarily mean that it's balanced. because you're ignoring the possibility that it is underpowered.

I agree. However, IWAY only worked because it was overpowered. After the nerfs it WAS underpowered, because it was a degenerate build built on exploiting broken mechanics. There's no reason 4 warriors with 2 necros healing them should have worked at that point in the game if it were properly balanced.

And again, if the mechanics the build were based on were overpowered, then the build was as well. If you can't refute this I'm going to have to assume that you're just making up nonsense.

If you lose to 3 groups all of the time even using that overpowered build of yours, well your build is not that overpowered anymore because technically, everybody can now own you. All that the scrubby whiners must do is to play like those 3 groups who always beat you.

Sorry, your definition fails.

Rspike was broken and it lost. Signet of Might was broken and it lost. Dervish train was broken and it lost. Incoming chains with Energizing Finale was broken and it lost. Hexway was broken and it lost. Ritspike was broken and it lost. Etc, ad nauseam.

Your definition of overpowered can't account for this, so I think it's safe to say that we can ignore it. In fact, can't think of a single overpowered mechanic in any game that resulted in an unbeatable auto-win every time.

In pretty much every competative game out there, something is considered overpowered when it either limits the other options, or is low risk:high reward, low skill:high reward or low effort:high reward - to the point where the reward is disproportional to the amount of skill or effort it takes to win. IWAY was all of those as it gave very low skilled players the ability to farm massive amounts of fame. Just look at the r9+ IWAYers you mentioned earlier for evidence of this. Most of those r11 and 12 IWAYers are absolutely terrible at the game.

The only people who hated IWAY were scrubs and spikers. Period.

Tell that to LuLu, Tommy, Miss Air Jordan, Prav, iQ, EW - hell any of the old ID1 crew who were around before all the scrubs moved on to IWAY after sucking at balanced and spike. Sorry, but you're talking out your *** here; the majority of truly good tombs players hated IWAY. IWAY devalued rank and was brainlessly easy to play. Nobody, good or otherwise, but IWAYers liked it after the initial novelty wore off. And the people who didn't hate it for being overpowered hated it for being the only build your ever fought against.



Anyway, I'm tired arguing about a dead build. You can't even prove your claims... this is pretty pointless.

[mmorpg man]

Anyway, I'm tired arguing about a dead build. You can't even prove your claims... this is pretty pointless.

plus its pretty pointless talking about a long dead build in a near dead arena. moving on everyone.

like someone said earlier in this thread, obs mode has killed HA by allowing gimmick builds to be known to more people more quickly. I remember going onto obs mode just after unlocking HA to see what works and what doesn't. saw the thumper-heroway build and for the first month or so thats all I used. basically this comes down to human nature that if we find something that works we will continue to use it and exploit it to reap the rewards.

[kongkingx]

Nope, same update as OoV and Eviscerate.

I agree. However, IWAY only worked because it was overpowered. After the nerfs it WAS underpowered, because it was a degenerate build built on exploiting broken mechanics. There's no reason 4 warriors with 2 necros healing them should have worked at that point in the game if it were properly balanced.

What's the point of having lotsa skills if only certain skills can be used to make a non degenerate build?

All builds are legit. Only scrubs define degenerate builds.

And again, if the mechanics the build were based on were overpowered, then the build was as well. If you can't refute this I'm going to have to assume that you're just making up nonsense.

The mechanics were not overpowered. It was just the things that should've put in defense were put more on offense.

Rspike was broken and it lost. Signet of Might was broken and it lost. Dervish train was broken and it lost. Incoming chains with Energizing Finale was broken and it lost. Hexway was broken and it lost. Ritspike was broken and it lost. Etc, ad nauseam.

Nothing was broken but a very few builds (or one called signet of might). People just made the balanced build as benchmark and everything that has an offense above the balanced build (even they sacrificed defense or adaptability) is viewed as overpowered by scrubs.

Your definition of overpowered can't account for this, so I think it's safe to say that we can ignore it.

only War Machine and EvIL were the guilds that wasn't owned by Sweetie Animal Girls, an IWAY supergroup which got top 3 overall in GvG. So what does it say? If scrubs played like WM and EvIL back then, then they wouldn't be owned by IWAY.

In fact, can't think of a single overpowered mechanic in any game that resulted in an unbeatable auto-win every time.

coz technically, nothing is overpowered. It's just scrub whining.

In pretty much every competative game out there, something is considered overpowered when it either limits the other options, or is low risk:high reward, low skill:high reward or low effort:high reward - to the point where the reward is disproportional to the amount of skill or effort it takes to win. IWAY was all of those as it gave very low skilled players the ability to farm massive amounts of fame. Just look at the r9+ IWAYers you mentioned earlier for evidence of this. Most of those r11 and 12 IWAYers are absolutely terrible at the game.

This game is not only about playing balanced. Stopped concluding plx.

Tell that to LuLu, Tommy, Miss Air Jordan, Prav, iQ, EW - hell any of the old ID1 crew who were around before all the scrubs moved on to IWAY after sucking at balanced and spike. Sorry, but you're talking out your *** here; the majority of truly good tombs players hated IWAY. IWAY devalued rank and was brainlessly easy to play. Nobody, good or otherwise, but IWAYers liked it after the initial novelty wore off. And the people who didn't hate it for being overpowered hated it for being the only build your ever fought against.

You're quoting people who weren't even playing HA hardcore when IWAY was cool.

Tell that to the rest of people who broke off Prav, tell that to some members of Te who played IWAY (for fun), tell that to few members of [cow], tell that to Electron Theory, and tell that to Power of My Ranger who did IWAY after his scrubby spike got owned everytime by iway

Anyway, I'm tired arguing about a dead build. You can't even prove your claims... this is pretty pointless.

Why should I present a proof of my claim if I AM the proof of my claims. I was an IWAYer since September '05 and followed any developments with the build and got news within the IWAY circle.

Just take my word for it. Remember, YOU WERE NOT IN THE IWAY CIRCLES.

[B Ephekt]

All builds are legit. Only scrubs define degenerate builds.

By your logic, eF were a bunch of scrubs for winning with hexway and then complaining about how broken it was. And it was broken.

Scrub is a term used for someone who limits themselves, not a random insult for anyone who disagrees with you. IWAYers limited themselves by never learning how to play the game, and for the most part only tombing - a non-tourney setting.

The crux of your argument seems to be that anyone who recognizes an imbalance is a scrub. That's retarded and indefensible.

The mechanics were not overpowered.

They were deemed to be overpowered, so you're wrong. Any reasonable player will tell you that order stacking was retarded. It only lead to gimmicks like rspike and IWAY. Additionally, the IAS stacking was a bug; a broken mechanic.

coz technically, nothing is overpowered. It's just scrub whining.

Any game will have imbalances, it's inevitable. Claiming otherwise is simply incorrect (or a lie).

Even in the fighting game world, where scrub is the mantra of nearly every player, there are banned characters because they are truly imbalanced. Ignoring imbalances all together while chanting 'scrub' over and over does not prove that you're a good player. If anything, it just makes you look silly.

Trust me, nobody would care how 'leet' you claimed to be if you could only win with CE Sagat or Akuma.

Why should I present a proof of my claim if I AM the proof of my claims. I was an IWAYer since September '05 and followed any developments with the build and got news within the IWAY circle.

Nobody knows who you are so you're not proof of anything. I'm asking for reasoned, logical arguments here not "lolz u r a scrub if u disagree lolz." A monkey count come up with that.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

Nothing was broken but a very few builds (or one called signet of might). People just made the balanced build as benchmark and everything that has an offense above the balanced build (even they sacrificed defense or adaptability) is viewed as overpowered by scrubs.

Did you honestly just imply that Signet of Might was the only broken build ever?

As someone from a guild where nearly every original member has r1, r2, or r3 champ and we suck at GvG...that makes me giggle.

If you think running 8 D/Mos up to r6 on the Guild ladder in 2 days is balanced, then I guess you just fail right there don't you?

[kongkingx]

Did you honestly just imply that Signet of Might was the only broken build ever?

As someone from a guild where nearly every original member has r1, r2, or r3 champ and we suck at GvG...that makes me giggle.

If you think running 8 D/Mos up to r6 on the Guild ladder in 2 days is balanced, then I guess you just fail right there don't you?

Rank 6 in 2 days? Well, I call it "shocking" the ladder. People weren't prepared and running the same crap on the ladder.

Well if you finished rank 1 after the ladder season ends, I can safely say its overpowered.

But yea, I failed that to list (and I said "certain builds")

By your logic, eF were a bunch of scrubs for winning with hexway and then complaining about how broken it was. And it was broken.

Because they don't run hexway and they ran it but still hated it.

Yes they are good players but they are scrubs.

Scrub is a term used for someone who limits themselves, not a random insult for anyone who disagrees with you. IWAYers limited themselves by never learning how to play the game, and for the most part only tombing - a non-tourney setting.

Scrubs are those people who whine because supposedly a certain overpowered build beats them.

To quote someone, "Because what defeats you must be overpowered".

Trust me, nobody would care how 'leet' you claimed to be if you could only win with CE Sagat or Akuma.

Winning is the only name of the game. Win whatever it takes. (iQ style?).

Nobody knows who you are so you're not proof of anything. I'm asking for reasoned, logical arguments here not "lolz u r a scrub if u disagree lolz." A monkey count come up with that.

Follow through my old posts here so you'll get a clue. Coz you made me name drop before. I hate name dropping and it makes me itch if i do so.

You should be thankful that someone, like me, a hardcore scrubby IWAYer, is offering you the other side of the story. I bet all you heard about iway were riff raffy trashy things from fellow haters.


OK, let's please go back to why HA was dead topic.

Again, my take on that is that because IWAY was nerfed.

[B Ephekt]

Because they don't run hexway and they ran it but still hated it.

Yes they are good players but they are scrubs.

They don't run it anymore because it got nerfed, thanks in large part due to their complaints. They ran it for an entire 'season' because it was broken and the best build at the time.

They didn't limit their success, so no, they're not scrubs. You just have no idea what the term means.

Scrubs are those people who whine because supposedly a certain overpowered build beats them.

To quote someone, "Because what defeats you must be overpowered".

No, sorry, that's only part of it. A scrub is someone who refuses to use a certain tactic because it's "cheap" or "noob" and therefore limits their success. A scrub would be someone who didn't run meta because it was "lame" and then never got anywhere.

You can't really compare players who are sensible enough to acknowledge imbalances and hate seeing an otherwise skill-based game degenerate into button mashing (C-spacebar, if you will).

I'm sure some people disliked IWAY because they lost to it, but a lot of people hated it because it was a truly retarded build that gave bad players a braindead easy way to farm and devalue fame. Why do you think rank means absolutely nothing now? Because you could farm a tiger with IWAY in a couple months, and still have no clue how to play.

Follow through my old posts here so you'll get a clue.

Honestly, I don't care who you are. Your arguments are terrible. I just want you to provide evidence when you claim that IWAY was balanced...

You should be thankful that someone, like me, a hardcore scrubby IWAYer, is offering you the other side of the story. I bet all you heard about iway were riff raffy trashy things from fellow haters.

I respect your view. I just can't agree with it, because I konw very well how bad the vast majority of IWAYers were at this game. Sure, there were a few good players that IWAYed from time to time, but they are definitely a very small minority.

Rank 6 in 2 days? Well, I call it "shocking" the ladder. People weren't prepared and running the same crap on the ladder.

I'll give you that this definitely had something to do with it, but that build was just ridiculous. They were the sole reason dervishes got nerfed HARD before ever making it into release.

[kongkingx]

No, sorry, that's only part of it. A scrub is someone who refuses to use a certain tactic because it's "cheap" or "noob" and therefore limits their success. A scrub would be someone who didn't run meta because it was "lame" and then never got anywhere.

Did you just say that? because if you examine your statement, you just owned yourself.

If you were one of the many who didn't run IWAY when it used too own because you think its cheap, noob and lame and never got rank 10 in no time, you, sir, are a (former) scrub.

They didn't limit their success, so no, they're not scrubs. You just have no idea what the term means.

I have my own definition of scrub and i still have my list of non-scrub guilds (WM, EvIL, iQ, KGYU, cow) at hand. You never saw someone with those tags went to forums and whined how overpowered things were, don't you?