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  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin View Post
    I agree that the current gods were once mortals, but not human. Grenth, Abaddon, Dwayna, and Melandru show humanistic characteristics, but don't show themselves to be humans. Melandru and Dwayna are angelic. Grenth is, well hard to say (one mural shows him with wings so... Angel of Death? All we know is that he wears a skull). Abaddon was demonic (the physical entity we saw was very much like a Jade Armor, but i doubt a connection). Balthazar seems to be Human and Lyssa is a mystery. Lyssa seems to be siamese twins in some murals, one entity with multiple faces in others, so hard to tell. I highly doubt they became gods via finding treasure. Grenth killed Dhuum, Kormir "killed" Abaddon, Abaddon killed one or two other gods (I suspect one to be Arachnia), others are of unknown origins.
    Hm... so Kormir can be shiny golden, but Dwayna can't sprout wings...? Tsks...
    In all mythologies, many gods can change shapes, and we have seen many different representations for each god.
    They could also simply 'wear' clothing that make them look like having wings on the back or a skull instead of head.

    Just look at the margonites. All of them were once human. Some have wings, some tentacles. What are they now? The mists turned them into what they are. Same goes for gods. Things can change.

    Kormir was not shiny golden before being imbued with the power of Truth and Secrets.

    We know the shapes of avatars summoned at the statues, the Dervish avatar forms, the murals, the statues, other Artwork...
    They have 'guidelines' but they do not always look the same.
    And you must remember that what people pait is not always whet people really see. Jessu had no halo over his head, that was added by the artists.

    We know that the power of a god and the god itself can be separated, and the power of the god can affect the host and change it.

    We also know that each god usually takes creatures and change them to be their servants.

    Balthazar uses souls of ancient heroes (and not only Human heroes), and they become the Eternals, a kind of Ghosts.
    Melandru did the same with the Druids, Spirits that once were humans.
    Abaddon did the same with the Margonites, turning those that were once Humans into Demons. And he also uses torment creatures, which are demons created from the Mists.

    Grenth uses Reapers, which are Ghosts, but they could have been anything before.
    We don't know anything about Lyssa's servants, other than her Avatars the Muse.
    And Dwayna uses Angels. We don't know what exactly angels are, or what do they look like, other than the supposition that Avatar of Dwayna could be an angel, since she has wings.
    Angels could be like demons, created from or by interaction with the mists. (In many cultures demons are made out of the same thing like angels, just with 'opposite' polarity) but since we have never seen any, we can't tell.

    For the latter three, they could have been once humans or not. We don't know enough about them.

    What is sure, is that Gods NEVER look like their servants. They may look like the Avatar Forms, like the murals, like the Statues, but not like the servants. The servants are just messengers.
    So there's nothing supporting Dwayna being an angel. She could be or could not be an angel. She could just wear wing-like chaos equipment. Or something like the Avatar Froms wears.

    Even Kormir could be no longer like her Avatar looks like. Now she's something different. And her old body could have been destroyed, and her memories about it used as a template for her Avatar.
    She could even change more once the sealed power of Abaddon is fully released and the real of Torment goes back to its place.
    This is something we'll only see in GW2, if we get to see her again.

    Another theory of mine supporting that Abaddon was once a human too, is what is found in The Heart of Abaddon: Razah.
    When the original Abaddon gained his power, he got connected to the real of Torment, (as we can see parts of his 'body' all over the place, like the tendrils or those bone-like things)
    If that were like that, once defeated, his body would collapse and be destroyed, the power released contained in Kormir.
    But like there are ashes when a fire is extinguished, there could be 'remnants' of what he once was, and those remnants would be the trigger for Razah's creation. Like when you put a sand grain inside an oyster and a pearl appears there, what was left of Abadon's humanity became the little grain of sand that triggered the gathering of the Mist that formed Razah.
    What is sure is that Razah looks like a human because the interaction of the Mists with humans, being it the player, other humans, the original Human Abaddon or the remnants of Abaddon.
    What is sure is that Razah is not human, though, he only looks like one.

  2. #32
    I'm no Loregeek. Most of this went over my head.
    So, I’ve come to the conclusion that magic is just a form of the Mists being manipulated, but souls happen to be a key energy source for Margonites, Demons, Mursaat, and perhaps even the Gods themselves. Magic is also a central energy source. The end conclusion then must be that souls contain certain parts of the Mists, that, when in a large supply, are a morbid and dark form of energy that is only used by the vilest creatures or by creatures that have no other choice but to use them for sustenance.
    Or that the Mist is made up of souls.
    Or that there are different types of magic, some controlled by the soul and some by the Mist.

    Afaik, the Mist's only purpose and sole magical power is creation. (Ironically, it seems to mostly create things intend on destruction). It stands to reason it isn't capable of subverting itself. That'd imply that disruptive magic doesn't have its source in the Mists.

    If water conducts 'Mistmagic', then why did Echovald Forest, a mostly earthen environment, still become completely petrified? If winds conducts that magic (like the Jade Wind would imply) why didn't the other ex/implosions of magic get conducted in a similar fashion?

    If the Mist only has creation magic, how can the Bloodstones hold destructive magic, unless it's from a different source?

    The Rift is part and parcel of the Mists. It is also everywhere at once. If the Rift is everywhere, or can be everywhere, why would it be bad if the rest of the Mists gained access to Tyria? What's the use of the Barriers?

    Just to mention a few things which don't appear consistent.
    Last edited by Akirai Annuvil; 25-09-2008 at 01:31.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by jayson View Post
    So would you call Razah a demon or something else? And even if he was designed to be the strongest hero he would still fall under the limitations of humanoids. Regardless of his original ability of becoming any class, he was still limited to a dual class system. Not exaclty the all powerful creation he was supposed to be imo.
    I would call Razah a demon (iirc, he also takes damage from EoE when a demon dies, I'm not sure though). This limitation you mention is due to the game mechanics. Although it would be sweet if he, like he should be able to, could use all 10 profession skills as he sees fit (along with having a much higher attribute setting), it won't work with game mechanics (or could, but would be too overpowered to have as a hero). The whole dual profession and 200 attribute points (or really 160 attribute points) are both causes of the Bloodstones (in lore standards, I believe). Without the Bloodstones, we'd basically be infinite levels, infinite attribute points, and all 10 professions at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    Being supplanted by evil is correct. And none more evil then the humans who covet the very power they wield. The more I read about humans, the more I see them as the true evil in Tyria.
    I wouldn't say true evil. I'd call humans as the "anti-heroes" of the GW universe. They have bad morals and are, as a whole, not the best thing to happen to Tyria, but they still fight true evil (aka Abaddon/Dhuum/Menzies and your basic slaughterers and marauders).

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    My point exactly. The end result in my theory was that with full magic power, humans would easily rival the Gods who imo are nothing more then humans who've tapped into the mists.
    But that's not my point. The bloodstone's creation was done to save humans from themselves just as much as to save the Tengu, Dwarves, Charr, etc. etc. Not done to save the god's own hides.

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    Nothing in GW has ever struck me as kindness from the Gods. They have imo continually manipulated humanity to do their bidding. They've had us kill the Lich, destroy Shiro and finally clean up the mess they left with Abaddon. They hide themselves from us and only contact us when it suits them. None of that seems to promote a "loving parent" lol.
    Lich: He wanted global domination (and it was Glint, not the gods, who told us to kill him), he would have killed thousands, not just humans but any race. Shiro: He wanted to wreak havoc on the world, not just for humans, but all races. Abaddon: He wanted revenge on the gods, first thing on his agenda was to take over Tyria.

    We killed them more as a favor to the gods, not an order from them. When a child grows up, the last thing a parent should do is to make sure they can take care of themselves. This is done in GW2, and very little contact seems to be made between GW1 and GW2 (according to the wording of the Movement of the World).

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    See I feel that's too convenient an answer. Once done would imply one God. But six? And then the ability to create an entire race that's smarter then the mists own creations? Something fishy there.
    I don't get what you're getting at with the six. I don't see how you get "once done would imply one God" either... once done by the Mists (not done by the gods in other words) the Mists either cannot or will not (depending on how smart the non-god portions of the Mists is) create others that are exactly the same (even no two humans are exactly the same, even identical twins have some differences)

    And if the Gods are more intelligent then the seemingly mindless entity called the Mists (honestly, am I the only one that thinks of the Mists as a little child creating random things and watching how things turn out?), they would be able to create things with more intelligence then what the Mists creates. If you say Razah is as intelligent as humans, and if he was created by the Mists and not Abaddon, I will have to say, he is only more intelligent in the concept of being able to understand things. Basically, Razah is a unbiased humanoid.

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    It's my theory that all of them were once human and in the case of Dhuum and his like at least humanoid.
    Dhuum is believed to be insectoid because of a majority of his followers seem to have insect-like features (although, I personally think those followers were once followers of Arachnia, and moved to follow Abaddon/Dhuum afterwards).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan The Black View Post
    I have been wondering myself if the gods where once mortal but they somehow absorbed the raw awesome energy of the Dragons and then became a part of the mist. I have also been wondering if it was because Abaddon decided to drain the magic from the dragons that he gave magic to Tyria. The other gods would probably object to it because they knew how dangerous tampering with the Dragons could be.

    They might have realised because of Abaddons folly the dragons where slowly waking up so they left Tyria in a hurry after settling things with Abaddon.
    Reasonable, but unlikely. First, how could absorbing energy from the Ancient Dragons cause a connection with the Mists? Second, if they realized that the Ancient Dragons were waking up (very slowly, about 1300 years), then why would they simply leave instead of trying to prevent the waking of the Ancient Dragons, or warn the current inhabitance of Tyria about the Ancient Dragons so that they can be prepared.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noname Otakugami View Post
    -snip points on God's True Forms-
    What I was going for here actually, would be Melandru with wings (why would the goddess of nature and earth want wings? Makes sense for Dwayna, but not so much for Melandru). Yes, they could change their shapes, but of all the murals we have of them, don't you think that maybe, just maybe, some show their true form?

    I know it is not known that those are their true forms, they probably always showed up as human characteristics. I get that, but my main point in what you quoted was that it is not known if the True Gods were all originally human, and if not all were, Balthazar and Kormir are the most likely to be the only humans. I never said "Dwayna, Melandru, and Grenth are angels" etc. etc. as facts, but as possibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noname Otakugami
    What is sure, is that Gods NEVER look like their servants. They may look like the Avatar Forms, like the murals, like the Statues, but not like the servants. The servants are just messengers.
    So there's nothing supporting Dwayna being an angel. She could be or could not be an angel. She could just wear wing-like chaos equipment. Or something like the Avatar Froms wears.
    This I agree with and disagree with. God don't look like their servants, this is true, but followers look like their gods. If the servants were changed, they were changed to take on characteristics of their god. (Reapers becoming grim reaper-like, Druids becoming one with nature, Margonites gaining six eyes and become semi-corporeal). Followers that are not changed (such as the Priests of Balthazar, Necromancers, etc.) try to make things (i.e. clothing, armor) to help them look like their god (Necromancers, for instance, have a lot of skulls on some of their armors and have "dark" armor).

    And, you say that we have Murals, statues, etc. that the Gods may look like, then say that we have nothing that says Dwayna is an angel. Look at her statue, all of her murals, her avatar, her dervish avatar. Every one shows Dwayna as angelic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noname Otakugami
    Even Kormir could be no longer like her Avatar looks like. Now she's something different. And her old body could have been destroyed, and her memories about it used as a template for her Avatar.
    She could even change more once the sealed power of Abaddon is fully released and the real of Torment goes back to its place.
    This is something we'll only see in GW2, if we get to see her again.
    By what you said right there, means that the Avatars form to look like how the Gods once looked. This would mean: Grenth was a reaper-like creature, Balthazar was a warrior, Dwayna was an angel, Melandru was a druid, Lyssa was a floating head. Just by your comment, this is what you implied. Again, goes against what you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noname Otakugami
    Another theory of mine supporting that Abaddon was once a human too, is what is found in The Heart of Abaddon: Razah.
    When the original Abaddon gained his power, he got connected to the real of Torment, (as we can see parts of his 'body' all over the place, like the tendrils or those bone-like things)
    If that were like that, once defeated, his body would collapse and be destroyed, the power released contained in Kormir.
    But like there are ashes when a fire is extinguished, there could be 'remnants' of what he once was, and those remnants would be the trigger for Razah's creation. Like when you put a sand grain inside an oyster and a pearl appears there, what was left of Abadon's humanity became the little grain of sand that triggered the gathering of the Mist that formed Razah.
    What is sure is that Razah looks like a human because the interaction of the Mists with humans, being it the player, other humans, the original Human Abaddon or the remnants of Abaddon.
    What is sure is that Razah is not human, though, he only looks like one.
    The tendrils were formed by Abaddon's Mind. He changes the Realm of Torment with his dreams, so he made them as horrific as possible, so that once he finish dreaming them, and they get replaced with the real versions (from Tyria and other worlds), Tyria would be torment.

    Razah's creation and "template" was probably caused by the heroes coming into the Realm of Torment (of one of the many many human ghosts there). I'd have to say it's more likely for it to be one of the ghosts (by some of his armor designs, probably some of it off of Shiro and other Canthans) because Razah was imprisoned, if his creation happened after Abaddon's fall, why would he be imprisoned? There would be no mind to tell the demons to imprison Razah, except for Mallyx, and how do we know he knew of Razah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil View Post
    If water conducts 'Mistmagic', then why did the Jade Forest, a mostly earthen environment, still become completely petrified? If winds conducts that magic (like the Jade Wind would imply) why didn't the other ex/implosions of magic get conducted in a similar fashion?
    Error, Error. Echovald Forest, Jade Sea. You are mixing the two. Leon explained this, but in other terms, The power was intensified via the Jade Sea, and on Shiro's death, it turned into the Jade Wind. In other words, the water conducted the magic, his death let it loose, making an effect like a HUGE Death Nova.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil
    The Rift is part and parcel of the Mists. It is also everywhere at once. If the Rift is everywhere, or can be everywhere, why would it be bad if the rest of the Mists gained access to Tyria? What's the use of the Barriers?
    The Rift is far from everywhere. The Rift is at the center of the universe. It can connect to anywhere, but is not everywhere. And The Rift =/= The Mists, two different things.
    Last edited by Konig Des Todes; 24-09-2008 at 23:28.

  4. #34
    My apologies for not responding yesterday, not only was I rather out of it, but by the time the discussion became a bit more interesting I was about to fall over dead from being tired.

    Now my thoughts will hopefully be clear and I'll be able to convey them in such a manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil
    Or that the Mist is made up of souls.
    Or that there are different types of magic, some controlled by the soul and some by the Mist.

    Afaik, the Mist's only purpose and sole magical power is creation. (Ironically, it seems to mostly create things intend on destruction). It stands to reason it isn't capable of subverting itself. That'd imply that disruptive magic doesn't have its source in the Mists.
    Well, a point made earlier in the thread by Azazel was that the body or soul could possibly be a chunk of the Mists. Expanding on that with my idea that magic is simply the manipulation of the Mists, that chunk would be what allowed them the ability to manipulate. Highly skilled mages would have a larger chunk of the Mists making up their soul, or possibly just long years of training in how to connect the chunk to the whole allowing easier manipulation.

    Simply put: Souls contain a chunk of the Mists. Mages uplink that chunk to the whole, allowing them to manipulate the Mists. Ones with years of training are more adept at uplinking and keeping the link stable, allowing for easier prolonged manipulation of the Mists.

    As to the latter part of your quoted response..Well, I've sort of already responded to it. It isn't so much as magical, from my perspective, as it is a natural attribute. Where things are created could be considered where the Mists converge and coalesce, basically a more concentrated area that plops out a new creature. I hope this response makes sense, in regards to creation and the souls thing, and how from my perspective it isn't really subverting itself. Instead, you could simply say that it happens to be the creations or results of the Mists, that subvert it for destructive means. Which is pretty much what you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil
    If water conducts 'Mistmagic', then why did the Jade Forest, a mostly earthen environment, still become completely petrified? If winds conducts that magic (like the Jade Wind would imply) why didn't the other ex/implosions of magic get conducted in a similar fashion?
    I'm glad you caught this. For some reason, no one I can remember at the moment has. This has posed a major stumbling block for me, especially in my Magical Conductivity theory. If I were to explain it, I would explain it in a similar manner to the Cataclysm's effect on the Tarnished Coast. The Tarnished Coast was, quite literally, a sponge for the magical energies from the Cataclysm. This is actually stated in, I'm fairly certain, the Eye of the North Manuscripts (if you can call them that).

    So in the same way that the Tarnished Coast soaked up the Cataclysm's magical energies, so did the Echovald Forest soak up the magical energies that were conducted from the Jade Sea.

    In a more scientific way, I would say that the vacuoles of the plant cells of the trees conducted the magic, but that, while scientific, would then lead to why they aren't jade instead..

    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil
    If the Mist only has creation magic, how can the Bloodstones hold destructive magic, unless it's from a different source?
    Well, like I said, magic is, at least to me, the manipulation of the Mists. I think that the Bloodstones, as I've said earlier, are like a dam, keeping the Mists from being in complete contact with Tyria. Or at the very least a dam that filters what's let through, filtering out the more powerful aspects of magic.

    I think, that at the time before the Bloodstones, most things were the same. Creatures' souls contained chunks of the Mists, they still had to manipulate it, and everything. However, with the Mists being in direct contact with Tyria, the uplink was far too easy to make, allowing them to tap into some of the most destructive manipulations of the Mists. That's why mages then found it so easy to abuse magic, in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil
    The Rift is part and parcel of the Mists. It is also everywhere at once. If the Rift is everywhere, or can be everywhere, why would it be bad if the rest of the Mists gained access to Tyria? What's the use of the Barriers?
    You kind of lose me here. The Mists are everywhere, the Rift is at the center of the Mists, and connects everything. Or, at least, connections can be made from within it to anywhere depending on your interpretation.

    ...I really need to go back and modify my original post a bit with some of these examples I'm coming up with. They really help to convey my ideas clearly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noname Otakugami View Post
    We know that the power of a god and the god itself can be separated, and the power of the god can affect the host and change it.
    It's certain that the power can affect the host, and obviously by affecting the host, change it. And you're right that the power of a God and the God itself can be separated.

    I think this actually supports my idea that Gods are actually just more concentrated, sentient parts of the Mists. The forms we see, containers of this power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noname Otakugami
    I'm sure you'll call me crazy when I say this.
    But since I knew that the power of a god can be transfered, I stater to think that the current gods were once humans.
    So, the power of the gods exists even without gods, but can be controlled by a creature that contains the power, by turning into a god.
    Quote Originally Posted by Noname Otakugami
    Another theory of mine supporting that Abaddon was once a human too, is what is found in The Heart of Abaddon: Razah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayson
    My point exactly. The end result in my theory was that with full magic power, humans would easily rival the Gods who imo are nothing more then humans who've tapped into the mists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayson
    It's my theory that all of them were once human and in the case of Dhuum and his like at least humanoid. I believe that the saying "Absolute power corrupts absolutley" applies here. We can use Grenth supplanting Dhuum and Kormir supplanting Abaddon. In the case of Kormir it was different because the power had to go somewhere and the gods chose kormir because they could trust her. Better her then another who wouldn't be in agreement with the five. You'd have the same abaddon situation all over again. As far as I'm concerned, she's no better then the rest of the current gods now.
    I'm simply going to address these posts all at once, with a simple, but I think, to the point, statement. The current Gods may have been humans from another world, this is entirely possible. My thought was reaching far back, before the current Gods, without my realizing it at first until now, to the first pantheon of Gods. They were formed by concentrated areas of the Mists, containing larger chunks in their souls, or perhaps even their entire soul was a chunk of the Mists. Which is what allows them to so easily manipulate the Mists because they're able to uplink with it at ease.

    I do not think that even the Gods could begin to give their own creations the same power they have, power rivaling it, perhaps, but their actual power? It's a possibility, how probable it is, can be debated over and over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan the Black
    I have been wondering myself if the gods where once mortal but they somehow absorbed the raw awesome energy of the Dragons and then became a part of the mist. I have also been wondering if it was because Abaddon decided to drain the magic from the dragons that he gave magic to Tyria. The other gods would probably object to it because they knew how dangerous tampering with the Dragons could be.

    They might have realised because of Abaddons folly the dragons where slowly waking up so they left Tyria in a hurry after settling things with Abaddon.
    I highly doubt this to be the case, and I think my response has already explained in other parts why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayson
    Ok so this part confuses me a little. The gods are a part of the Mists, but are or arenít in control of it? Razah was created by the Mists or the gods? If he was created by the gods then it would make sense why he would only have basic humanoid limits. If in fact he was created by the Mists, then why was Razah not created as powerful as the gods?
    Yeah, sorry about that part, I really wasn't all that clear. I believe they hold dominance over certain manipulations of the Mists. Like Balthazar holds dominance over the area of fire, Dwayna wind and life, Grenth cold and death, Melandru earth and nature, Lyssa energy and illusion, and Kormir's just the odd one with truth.

    Actually, scrap that. Just scrap it all. My thoughts on this are displayed in the following:

    My thought was reaching far back, before the current Gods, without my realizing it at first until now, to the first pantheon of Gods. They were formed by concentrated areas of the Mists, containing larger chunks in their souls, or perhaps even their entire soul was a chunk of the Mists. Which is what allows them to so easily manipulate the Mists because they're able to uplink with it at ease.

    I believe they have a higher amount of control over the Mists, but not complete dominance over it.

    Alright..I think..I covered everything in here that's been brought up with this response. Sorry about the length. I just want to get my thoughts out there, some slightly different now yet with the same base, in a clear manner so that it can be easily understood.

    The one thing I would love in the world is knowledge being made clear and easy to understand, so I try to do that with any of my ideas or theories. Any questions, any criticisms, I try to respond to the best of my ability, in the clearest manner I'm able to devise at the time of thinking.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Gmr Leon View Post
    Simply put: Souls contain a chunk of the Mists. Mages uplink that chunk to the whole, allowing them to manipulate the Mists. Ones with years of training are more adept at uplinking and keeping the link stable, allowing for easier prolonged manipulation of the Mists.
    Hating to go off topic but, I just can't help but mention: With this way of putting it, I am reminded of a book series called The Dragon Nimbus (with related series The Dragon Nimbus History and The Stargods) by Irene Radford. In the books, there is a place called the Void, which is the afterlife, home of the dragons, source of magic, and it holds all the knowledge in existence. In the books, the magicians have to connect their souls to the Void (and through this can venture into the Void as well as work magic) in order to work magic, and the more experience they have, the more they can access the Void without harm (staying in the Void too long causes harm to both the soul and the body).


    Quote Originally Posted by Gmr Leon
    I'm glad you caught this. For some reason, no one I can remember at the moment has. This has posed a major stumbling block for me, especially in my Magical Conductivity theory. If I were to explain it, I would explain it in a similar manner to the Cataclysm's effect on the Tarnished Coast. The Tarnished Coast was, quite literally, a sponge for the magical energies from the Cataclysm. This is actually stated in, I'm fairly certain, the Eye of the North Manuscripts (if you can call them that).

    So in the same way that the Tarnished Coast soaked up the Cataclysm's magical energies, so did the Echovald Forest soak up the magical energies that were conducted from the Jade Sea.

    In a more scientific way, I would say that the vacuoles of the plant cells of the trees conducted the magic, but that, while scientific, would then lead to why they aren't jade instead..
    Like I said in my above post, I always considered the affects of the Jade Wind to be similar to that of a Death Nova. A Death Nova poisons and damages all nearby enemies, so when everything is the enemy, even the land and water, it isn't to hard to think that the water and trees gets turned into stone as their version of being "poisoned." The Jade Wind was just a "Super Death Nova" how I see it, instead of poisoning, turning things to stone, wood went to granite, and sea turned to jade. Different things turned to different kinds of stone, but it is all still stone.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin View Post
    The whole dual profession and 200 attribute points (or really 160 attribute points) are both causes of the Bloodstones (in lore standards, I believe). Without the Bloodstones, we'd basically be infinite levels, infinite attribute points, and all 10 professions at once.
    That sounds very godlike to me.

    I wouldn't say true evil. I'd call humans as the "anti-heroes" of the GW universe. They have bad morals and are, as a whole, not the best thing to happen to Tyria, but they still fight true evil (aka Abaddon/Dhuum/Menzies and your basic slaughterers and marauders).
    I see the point you're making. But knowing that we invaded the Charr lands doesn't exactly inspire me to believe that we're good people. Add to that the guild wars themselves and it's easy to see how warlike and destructive humanity is.

    Fighting your basic slaughterers and marauders is almost always a provoked conflict. When we fight thieves and bandits in pre searing, it's our own kind. When we fight the stone summit, we're trespassing on their territory. Something we wouldn't have had to do had we not invaded the Charr homelands and been basicly driven out. We fight centaurs because we take their homelands. We fight tengu because we take their lands as well. See a pattern here?

    As for Dhuum and Menzies it's basicly none of our business. It's the gods who allowed interaction with the demons/realms. It's the gods who allow humans to be pitted against each other for sport and entertainment and reward such conflicts. For that matter whether his intentions were for good or not, Abaddon created a disaster by introducing such power to humanity. It's the gods themselves that drive all the conflicts for humanity.

    But that's not my point. The bloodstone's creation was done to save humans from themselves just as much as to save the Tengu, Dwarves, Charr, etc. etc. Not done to save the god's own hides.
    I'm trying to look at the larger picture here. Follow me on this. We have the gods who create the bloodstones to suppress the power any race or single being can possess. Not doing so would eventually lead to destruction on a global scale. This much I'm sure we can agree upon. We see the level of destruction that can be achieved through the searing. Now the gods obviously saw this happening and did nothing to prevent it even though they were the ones who created this conflict to begin with. At no point is there a healing of the land or any type of retribution from the gods even knowing Abaddon was at work here. Now why this type of attack was never used again is not known. My guess is that magic on that scale can't be used by any non god without the aid of a god themselves. Such a safeguard would be smart because the gods themselves could be attacked with it. Now following the idea of mortals having this kind of power, eventually nearly everyone would be wiped out. And when that happens who do you think those mortals are going to turn on next? My guess would be the ones who created these problems to begin with. Hence looking at the larger picture and the gods saving their own butt.

    Lich: He wanted global domination (and it was Glint, not the gods, who told us to kill him), he would have killed thousands, not just humans but any race.
    The Lich was doing this for what purpose and was being manipulated by whom though? And as for Glint, who do you think is controlling her? If the gods created her and Glint knows of the Prophecies, wouldn't it be a safe bet that the gods know of it as well?

    Shiro: He wanted to wreak havoc on the world, not just for humans, but all races.
    Under who's direction?

    Abaddon: He wanted revenge on the gods, first thing on his agenda was to take over Tyria.We killed them more as a favor to the gods, not an order from them.
    That's right all of this was Abaddons doing. And Abaddons wasn't really our problem. You can say we were doing the gods a favour but I believe that's too "nice" a way of putting it. We were manipulated into doing everything. There was never a choice. It was "Do it or all of humanity will die". But not because of humantiy. It was because the gods messed up. And they expect us to clean it up? Doesn't sound like a god to me.

    When a child grows up, the last thing a parent should do is to make sure they can take care of themselves. This is done in GW2, and very little contact seems to be made between GW1 and GW2 (according to the wording of the Movement of the World).
    Take care of themselves yes, but would you ask your child to fix the mistakes you've created? All I see here is bumbling from a group of immortals who either can't or won't take responsibility for their actions. I feel the Charr got it right when they stated "No more gods."

    I don't get what you're getting at with the six. I don't see how you get "once done would imply one God" either... once done by the Mists (not done by the gods in other words) the Mists either cannot or will not (depending on how smart the non-god portions of the Mists is) create others that are exactly the same (even no two humans are exactly the same, even identical twins have some differences)
    For the mists to have "created" the gods in the literal sense, would imply to me a very high degree of intelligence. You wouldn't just decide to create 5 or six gods before first testing out how it works. Then revising and refining. Seeing as how the gods are imo failures. Why would the mists create more then one? This is why I feel the mists are not sentient and are nothing more then an energy source to be tapped into. It would be easier for me to believe that the mists allow for creation under the guidance of an intelligent individual. A human for instance with near unlimited resources such as the power of the mists could become a god.

    And if the Gods are more intelligent then the seemingly mindless entity called the Mists (honestly, am I the only one that thinks of the Mists as a little child creating random things and watching how things turn out?), they would be able to create things with more intelligence then what the Mists creates.
    Well seeing as I believe the mist have zero intelligence I would disagree with your theory yes.

    If you say Razah is as intelligent as humans, and if he was created by the Mists and not Abaddon, I will have to say, he is only more intelligent in the concept of being able to understand things. Basically, Razah is a unbiased humanoid.
    Razah is intelligent yes. But imo he is lacking in a lot of what humanity is. His understanding of what drives a human, his lack of understandnig of pain and his interaction according to his phrases are very basic. So he knows how to do what he does... but does not know what humantiy is. And that's a failing of the mists themselves. And you have to bear in mind that if Razah has such a limited understandnig, it goes against the intelligence of the supposed creation of the gods before Razah. Essentially Razah would be a step backwards in creation. Why would he be any less in intelligence if the gods and other creations before him are smarter and understand more?

    Dhuum is believed to be insectoid because of a majority of his followers seem to have insect-like features (although, I personally think those followers were once followers of Arachnia, and moved to follow Abaddon/Dhuum afterwards).
    Can't comment on this. You'd know better then I.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by jayson View Post
    That sounds very godlike to me.
    Nah, godlike would be no profession, our own skills, infinite attribute points from lvl 1 (not 5 attribute points from each level gained), and incredibly high armor.

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    I see the point you're making. But knowing that we invaded the Charr lands doesn't exactly inspire me to believe that we're good people. Add to that the guild wars themselves and it's easy to see how warlike and destructive humanity is.

    Fighting your basic slaughterers and marauders is almost always a provoked conflict. When we fight thieves and bandits in pre searing, it's our own kind. When we fight the stone summit, we're trespassing on their territory. Something we wouldn't have had to do had we not invaded the Charr homelands and been basicly driven out. We fight centaurs because we take their homelands. We fight tengu because we take their lands as well. See a pattern here?

    As for Dhuum and Menzies it's basicly none of our business. It's the gods who allowed interaction with the demons/realms. It's the gods who allow humans to be pitted against each other for sport and entertainment and reward such conflicts. For that matter whether his intentions were for good or not, Abaddon created a disaster by introducing such power to humanity. It's the gods themselves that drive all the conflicts for humanity.
    1) Humans are greedy, they want things. Power, Land, Wealth. The list goes on. But does that mean humans are evil? I say no, it means we are fallible. There are humans that are evil, yes, but not as a whole.

    The thing with Abaddon, Dhuum, and Menzies becomes our problem because those three (mainly Abaddon) makes it our problem. It is still the God's problem, but we offer our service (and we even gotta pay for that) to help with things that are not out problem.

    But this is all getting off topic, this belongs in some "Humans are Evil in GW" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    Now the gods obviously saw this happening and did nothing to prevent it even though they were the ones who created this conflict to begin with.
    As far as we know, the gods are not omnipotent beings (I think I'm using the right term, that is, all knowing).

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    At no point is there a healing of the land or any type of retribution from the gods even knowing Abaddon was at work here.
    There is a healing of the land, natural healing. Perhaps the gods think things done without magic is better. Physical strength over fake strength, make people rely on themselves and not others. That right there would be strengthening them, which kind of goes against your theory (why strengthen those who would kill you? Especially if you knew they would.)

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    Now why this type of attack was never used again is not known. My guess is that magic on that scale can't be used by any non god without the aid of a god themselves. Such a safeguard would be smart because the gods themselves could be attacked with it. Now following the idea of mortals having this kind of power, eventually nearly everyone would be wiped out. And when that happens who do you think those mortals are going to turn on next? My guess would be the ones who created these problems to begin with. Hence looking at the larger picture and the gods saving their own butt.
    As said in the Ecology of the Charr, the Cauldron of Cataclysm was given to the Charr by the Titans and are believed to be linked to a more ancient source then the Titans. So yes, this kind of power cannot be wielded by a normal mortal, they would need the "favor" of a god.

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    The Lich was doing this for what purpose and was being manipulated by whom though? And as for Glint, who do you think is controlling her? If the gods created her and Glint knows of the Prophecies, wouldn't it be a safe bet that the gods know of it as well?
    He was doing so for his own gain, corrupted but not ordered by Abaddon. We have no evidence that he was following any orders, he was just going with the Flameseeker Prophecies (not even sure if they were completely true as well it seems). Not really a safe bet that the gods know of it as well. And even if it did, there is nothing that we know of that links the Prophecies' events to Abaddon from the actual prophecies (the Titans *or the Foundry of Failed Creations* is only referred to as "the Flame" until the titans are actually released).

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    Under who's direction?
    Shiro under his own, after being corrupted by Abaddon. Us under the Envoy's/Kuunavang's, not directly the Gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    That's right all of this was Abaddons doing. And Abaddons wasn't really our problem. You can say we were doing the gods a favour but I believe that's too "nice" a way of putting it. We were manipulated into doing everything. There was never a choice. It was "Do it or all of humanity will die". But not because of humantiy. It was because the gods messed up. And they expect us to clean it up? Doesn't sound like a god to me.
    You see, he was our problem, since he became a problem. He gave the Tyrians something that could cause self-destruction, he tried to take over the world *in a sense*. Those sound like our problems. This part was not a service to the gods. Helping Grenth with the Underworld and Balthazar with the Fissure of Woe was service, killing Abaddon was done so that we can be in peace.

    Also, there is the idea that gods cannot kill another god (self-proposed law that Abaddon might have ignored).

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    Take care of themselves yes, but would you ask your child to fix the mistakes you've created? All I see here is bumbling from a group of immortals who either can't or won't take responsibility for their actions. I feel the Charr got it right when they stated "No more gods."
    basically answered that above.

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    For the mists to have "created" the gods in the literal sense, would imply to me a very high degree of intelligence. You wouldn't just decide to create 5 or six gods before first testing out how it works. Then revising and refining. Seeing as how the gods are imo failures. Why would the mists create more then one? This is why I feel the mists are not sentient and are nothing more then an energy source to be tapped into. It would be easier for me to believe that the mists allow for creation under the guidance of an intelligent individual. A human for instance with near unlimited resources such as the power of the mists could become a god.
    Like I said, the mists sound to be like a child. Little intelligence, and little care. If a failure is entertaining, why not make more of them? But, the gods are failures in your opinion. And like what me and Leon said, the current gods are most likely not the original gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    Well seeing as I believe the mist have zero intelligence I would disagree with your theory yes.
    You first agreed, to a degree, then you said you disagree. If the gods were smarter then the Mists, and the Mists created the gods, why can't the Mists create other things that are more intelligent then the Mists. If the Mists have zero intelligence, then everything created would be smarter then the Mists, and at least one thing had to be created by the Mists without being created by an influence of something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by jayson
    Razah is intelligent yes. But imo he is lacking in a lot of what humanity is. His understanding of what drives a human, his lack of understandnig of pain and his interaction according to his phrases are very basic. So he knows how to do what he does... but does not know what humantiy is. And that's a failing of the mists themselves. And you have to bear in mind that if Razah has such a limited understandnig, it goes against the intelligence of the supposed creation of the gods before Razah. Essentially Razah would be a step backwards in creation. Why would he be any less in intelligence if the gods and other creations before him are smarter and understand more?
    1. Razah is like a clean slate. He has a body, he has reflexes, he knows what to do physically, but mentally, he's no smarter then a 2 year old. He needs to learn.

    2. The amount of intelligence in anything is based on what they learn. When the Gods were first created, how do we know they were not like Razah is now? They could have been clean slates too, and they learned in one of two ways of learning (the two ways of learning being from observation and from experience). They learned through experience if they were like Razah is now. Maybe humanity was a mistake in this? Maybe not. Hard to tell until ANet gives an official origin on the gods (or the first gods at least).

    Going with what I said lastly, anything of the Mists could come out as a clean slate, with 0 intelligence, but with the ability to learn. Everything from the first god, to the first human. Humans start learning from the second they are born (rather slowly at first, and most forget their first 3 years after a while). So what is stopping the Gods from being created by the Mists, but gaining intelligence? Humans may be evil (I still consider the whole as an "anti-hero race"), they may be because the gods made a mistake in our creation. And the gods are fallible, that is known.

    In Short:
    I think the biggest problem with your line of thinking, and the GW gods, is that you are comparing them to the "perfect" gods from the Abrahamic religions, instead of comparing them to ancient polytheistic religions (like egyptian mythology, or greek mythology). In monotheistic religions, and some other current day religions, the God(s) is/are perfect in every way, infallible. The ancient religions' gods were fallible, just as the GW gods are.

    I'm gonna have to start making shorter responses, re-reading these latest responses are getting annoying.

  8. #38
    I think both of you are making a mistake in applying sentience or consciousness to the Mists. To me, they are a natural force, coalescing and converging by chance, forming creatures without any intent, and simply doing so as a part of existence. There is no rule or reason to why, they just do.

  9. #39
    I was not really applying sentience to the Mists, I can understand how jayson got there (how can something with no intelligence create something with intelligence). The only intelligence I linked to the Mists was that, it reminds me of a child that's wanting to have fun in watching things. Never said it had the mind of a child.

  10. #40
    Ah, well, that description gave me the impression you were applying some degree of sentience and intelligence to the Mists.

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