The Alchemy Circle

[Konig Des Todes]

This was on Guru for a while, and was in the Lore Group that only has 5 members, so I decided to make a thread, to increase discussion on this.


Guru Thread

I just talked with Jeff Grubb about this and I finally have an answer for you.
This symbol is not related to the Asura as it predates them. It's metaphysical in nature and may even be a map to the Mists developed by Lord Odran. - Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpgLinsey talk 21:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm saying that the Asura hadn't arrived on the scene yet for the Great Alchemy to be known in lore at that point. So the symbols are a part of lore that is unrelated to the Asura. I don't know what the Asura think of Lord Odran, but he is certainly a legendary figure having been the first to gain entry into the Mists. - Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpgLinsey talk 19:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...Alchemy_Circle

The known Alchemy Circles, and their dubbed names:
Prophecies Alchemy Circle:

Spoiler

(couristy of Free Runner/Sun Stargazer

There are two different Circles for this, the second one has a smaller circle, a copy, within the bigger one - giving it a 3d or tunnel effect.

Nightfall Alchemy Circle:

Spoiler

- biggest version here

Realm of Torment Alchemy Circle:

Spoiler

Going to quote a lot of past comments on this of observations made, first, the Guru thread:

Interesting things to note from this:
-If it's a map to the mists, it may be designed in some wizard writing, using symbols that common man can not understand.
-Why would Lord Odran need a map to the mists, if he already knew the way to them?
-Metaphysical in nature is something the Asura quite enjoy, their beliefs are indeed similar to alchemic beliefs in a few ways, the Ausra could have been made in some way related to something that Odran did.
-No mention of this by Linsey, but it's safe to assume that since his portal hiding magic was ruined and the greed of man overtook his portals etc, that this Alchemic Circle figure is a common symbol that most people on Tyria would understand, probably as well known as our Star of David, or the Cross.

-Why would Lord Odran need a map to the mists, if he already knew the way to them?

He explored the mists, he knew the way to them, he didn't know them in of itself.

-No mention of this by Linsey, but it's safe to assume that since his portal hiding magic was ruined and the greed of man overtook his portals etc, that this Alchemic Circle figure is a common symbol that most people on Tyria would understand, probably as well known as our Star of David, or the Cross.

Not necessarily. The common symbol known like the Staf of David of the Cross would actually be the Eye of Janthir that is seen in Divinity Coast, Temple of Balthazar in The Falls, Temple of Grenth in Lonar's Pass, the Hall of Grenth in the Underworld, and in some EN dungeons.

My question is, did Odran make this, or did Odran use this?

If the alchemy circle is indeed a "Map of the Mists", we can apply the logic of the Realm of Torment to this.

Something I remember reading a long time ago was about how humans somehow cannot comprehend the layout of the Realm of Torment, and thus use the "world map" we see in the RoT:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Image...of_Torment.jpg

See where I'm getting at?

Right here I would like to point to my Hypothesis on the Rift. Where I stated that the Realm of Torment was split up and separated from the rest of the Rift - which contains all of the Realms of the Gods and the Hall of Heroes - in order to complete the prison-like state of the Realm of Torment. In my hypothesis, the reason why humans cannot comprehend the shape of the Realm of Torment would be because of this, and because of the madness caused to and by Abaddon.

Also, I would have to think that the Alchemy Circle is a map of the Mists, not the Rift, and doesn't map out the "realms" (whether of the gods, or of worlds), but their locations in the Mists. Which that concept can go rather well with the Nightfall version, not so much the Prophecies one though.

So far I got two Alchemy circles. The one from prophecies (Light colored version) and the Nightfall version

Something on the light map. I see the Scepter of Orr at the bottom, in the 4th to left circle on the edge.

Also, think you can point me to a bigger picture of the Nightfall one? I would think that is the most "up to date" version and would like to look at it more thoroughly.

Edit:

I've always wondered what the purpose of the Alchemy Circle was. Looking at the various boxes and products it would appear there are only two versions.

The first version (Prophecies and Factions, as shown by Karuro) has writing on it that can be mostly made out - "The World Of Tyria" (Left Side through unsure if that says Tyria) and "Warrior" (Top right).Theres also "Mors" though its tough to read it. Are there any clearer pictures of the Proph/Factions Alchemy Circle with the words clearer?

EDIT: On looking closely it appears to have all the professions listed on certain lines.

The second more detailed circle has runes that look like the ones found on teleporters though i'll have to grab a screen to compare.

On the light version, I can make out the names of all 6 core professions, Warrior, Monk (not talking about "Mors"), Necromancer *hardest to read - right side from Monk), Mesmer (bottom left on a line), Ranger (bottom center), and Elementalist (second hardest to read, between Warrior and Monk).

As for the second, I agree that the runes look similar, hence why I wanted a bigger picture (as I am not sure were Karuro got such a clear version). I know it's on the Nightfall box, but that's blocked on my CE version and I can't find a clear version. :p Although they look more like the runes/markings that are on the sails of some Kournan ships.

I wonder, anyone else get the feeling that "Mors" was a name for another world/dimension within the Mists? You got Tyria, the on the other side of that same part, you got Mors.

I need some printed out versions of these.

After looking at these again, and looking at the black version of the original that Karuro posted on GWO, I think that the original is a small part of the newer, bigger, one. Possibly the circle at the bottom center of the Nightfall version is the original one. Hard to tell with the sizes.
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I am rather sure that whatever found out with the Alchemy Circle will either support or debunk things I said in my Odran Thread and my Rift Thread. More so the later.

I got a few theories going on with this Circle, but nothing really worth putting up yet. I'll just put it all up together in a scanned image of my doodles...

The Nightfall one almost appears to me as though a sketching of temporal distortions, due to the circle near the middle and the lower right.

I somewhat agree with Leon on the distortions with the Nightfall one.

I think it is an attempt to map the Realm of Torment. The realm is currently shattered landmasses, if you look at the edges of each circle, you can see that, if resized, they can be connected with the same pattern, a little reorganizing would be needed on the left side (as what is on the outer part would go inside). I'll try to make a Paint job of what I mean (as pencil doesn't show up well on the print out of that I have).

Could also be a map of the Rift as a whole, with the broken edges being where the Realm of Torment is/should be.

Also, the Nightfall one doesn't even have a real "center" which is where the Rift would be, if it were to be a map of the Mists. And it's not so much of a "circle" with how it is now.

I am currently looking to see if any of the symbols on the Nightfall Alchemy Circle has repeating runes (i.e., runes on the left side that repeat on the right side, in the same order).

Edit: This would be a lot easier if I had some sort of reference. But I'm slowly getting things.

For instance, the symbol in the center of the Prophecies Alchemy Circle, is also seen two other places. Just above what is believed to say "The World of Tyria" (at about a 45 degree angle from how it is in the center) and at the bottom right area of the left half of the Nightfall alchemy Circle.

Through this, I have reason to believe that the Prophecies Alchemy Circle was charted with having Tyria in the center, with that symbol representing Tyria.
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Edit2: Also found that symbol next to "Mors" so I'm not sure on what I said anymore.
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On top of that, I believe that the four edges of the Prophecies Circle are they keys for translating the Alchemy Circle, or was intended to be. With a symbol with the shape of the Scepter of Orr/Staff of the Mists in the fourth to the left-most circle and in the biggest triangle with a circle in it to the right of the same quarter key.

Also note that the star-like shape just above "Warrior" in the Prophecies Alchemy Circle is also in the Nightfall Circle, in the upper center of the design, there is a line of runes, the star is at the top.

Not sure if I mentioned this, but I believe that the upside down triangle on the rightmost part of the circle of the Prophecies Alchemy Circle is the Eye of Janthir.

Edit3:
Here is my most latest doodle. Maybe someone can use this for thoughts.

Spoiler

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Something I realized. It has been noticed that the two Alchemy Circles that we have are not similar except for two symbols which are in both. No other similarity really.

But there is something we didn't think of earlier. There are in fact three Alchemy Circles, one we overlooked, that Free Runner even mentioned.

The Realm of Torment map.

It is in the same format as the other two Alchemy Circles, but is also different, as different as the other two are from each other.

I believe that this Alchemy Circle is a map of the Mists, like Linsey said. But that this Alchemy Circle is a map of the Rift (going off of my Rift theory - sorry I keep bringing this back, but it's highly relevant as I think this hypothesis might actually be proven right with this - this would make sense as I said above). And then this Alchemy Circle is a map of the Realm of Torment alone.

In other words, the name for a map of non-Tyrian lands is called an "Alchemy Circle." The first one, from Prophecies, was made by Odran, possibly all of them were, but that one for sure was. It is incomplete and has Tyria as the center, the only place he knew Tyria would fit with a new map. This map also just has worlds and realms as simple symbols. At the bottom, the five circles - one of which I thought was the Scepter of Orr - are symbols of the Gods. Five Gods (as known by Odran at the time) Five Symbols, each symbol connected to each other by smaller symbols. I'm not sure what those smaller symbols represent as they are too small at the moment.

The next one, from Nightfall, is just a map of the Rift. The symbol I believe represents Tyria (shown in the notes above) is in this map, representing where in the Rift the portal to Tyria is. Because of the Realm of Torment's state, the Rift itself is chaotic and is hard to map, but can still be changed into a full circle. I have noticed that by resizing and rearranging some of the outer part of the circle, it can be returned to an almost full circle. I have yet to get to this, but I plan to.

The Realm of Torment one is one circle with multiple circles near it. This could have been done by the God's way of locking Abaddon up, by separating the realm itself, as I theorized in my aforementioned thread. There is no symbol to Tyria because Odran never made a portal directly to the Realm of Torment, therefore never needed a symbol.

If you notice the outer part of the big circle (which would contain the Vortex, Gate of Torment, Abaddon's Gate, and the Domain of Anguish - the three areas that were not separated from the original realm along with the newly created portal) it is designed similarly to two parts of the circle of the Prophecies Alchemy Circle.

But there is something we didn't think of earlier. There are in fact three Alchemy Circles, one we overlooked, that Free Runner even mentioned.

We didnt forget it. Karuro first made a direct mention of it in his first post. But we cant understand the Realm of Torment one without first understanding the Tyrian and Elonian one (i'm gonna nickname the Prophecies/Factions one the "Tyrian Circle" and the Nightfall one "Elonian Circle" for better refference, before people start to get mixed up with the Eternal Alchemy)

On a side note, the "light" version is missing alot of lines. There is a huge Triangle missing (can partly be seen) aswell as a couple of lines and circles. I'm gonna attempt to hunt down the First version.

EDIT: Okay heres the actual version:


This is the version found on the boxes and site. Its missing the bottom half but we already know whats there, from the light version. The difference between this one and the light one is that this one has two circles - one within the other. The outer one is missing some of its profession markers aswell. From this i believe the Light Version is the circle within the larger circle.

And after looking at the Elonian one further i can say the runes do not repeat. Some do look he same but each one appears to be unique.

The light version is just an invert of the original black version. Got a "whole" copy here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v8...023_551726.jpg

Taking a closer look at the cut-off version..
It looks like the circle has been copied and enlarged, so its a circle in a circle.

So on that note, maybe we're supposed to see that one as looking down a tube.
Or to be more precise, see it as "Layers" on top of each other.

I can't agree with the tube or layers idea, because if it were layers or a tube, one end would be different then another, not the exact same.

I think the copy/paste affect was done to make it look more complicated then it actually is, to confuse people in order to prevent people from solving out how to use the map, and the real map being the white version. The fact that the black version isn't in the gw.dat but the white version is, is further support for that, in my opinion.

Edit: Something I noticed on the white version:

"Mors" and "Toro" (still think that's what it says) are at opposing sides of the circle, similar to the two bigger symbols within the circle (the one with the bubble and the one that looks like the Eye of Janthir). Along with that, "The World of Tyria" looks a bit more like "The World of Toro" to me (the last word seems to have 4 letters, and none goes lower then the rest like a y would). "The World of Toro" and "Mors" are on opposing sides of the symbol (that is in that edge piece) that is also in the center of the circle, just like the two symbol I mentioned.

Because of this, I believe that those two symbols represent worlds/dimensions called "Mors" and "Toro," while the center represents Tyria. One of which, whenever looks like the Eye of Janthir, could be the Mursaat homeworld (IF, and that's a big if, Quintus' hypothesis on the Mursaat being inter-dimensional is correct, which I still doubt).

I still do not know what the smaller circles are, however, I believe that they may be "smaller" worlds - which is why their size is smaller, they represent smaller things. I believe that many of the smaller symbols are repeated along the edges, but I cannot tell with them being small as they are, my print outs being cut off at the edges of Mors/Toro (which prevent me from having a good close look without hurting my eyes), and the quality being poor.

Also, since I apperently did not mention this before, the 5 big symbols at the bottom of the bottom right edge, I believe are symbols for the Five True Gods, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, Dwayna, and Grenth (in that order from left to right). I say this because the Dwayna one, which I previously thought to be the Scepter of Orr/Staff of the Mists, looks like the Dwayna statue, but with arms stretching upwards. The one I consider Balthazar, I only base on the symbol looking like a W, which could stand for War (God of Fire and War). The center one I believe to be Lyssa because that symbol, for some reason, makes me think of a symbol for "chaos" and Lyssa is commonly connected to chaos as mesmer spells cause Chaos damage. The one I consider Melandru looks like the symbol that the word "Ranger" is next to in the Circle. Which left the last for Grenth.

Also note that the upper most symbol in that edge looks a lot like the symbol for Lyssa, with just two circles as an addition. Keep those circles and remove the part that would be Lyssa, and you get the symbol of the lower most symbol within the Circle, which is the end of the line with Mesmer on it. Another possible support for the middle of the 5 bigger symbols being Lyssa.

The smaller symbols between the "five god symbols" are too poor of quality to really tell, however the one between "Dwayna" and "Grenth" is repeated on the bottom left edge, near the bottom of that edge.

I also thought it said The World of Toro at first but upon looking closer the second letter looks too much like a Y. However you are correct - there does appear to be only four letters. I'm not sure if the i is just too close to the a or r, or they screwed up on the naming.

I've not looked at the symbols properly yet (only compared them) but it would be interesting if they were symbols for the gods. Though i still feel i've seen those runes somewere...i'm wondering if they are perhaps the glyphs from certain spells.

Nothing in the group that wasn't brought up in Guru. So, too add onto the above:

I took the liberty of removing the symbols of the Alchemy Circle to see if something can be made of just the lines - i.e., disecting the Alchemy Circle. I don't see anything special, but perhaps someone else can. This way, it looks more like a "real" alchemy circle.

Spoiler

[Karuro]

To be blunt, aside from the Triforce and a whirlpool, I don't see any interesting things in the dissected one.

[Konig Des Todes]

Yeah, same here when I finished it, but thought it was worth posting.

[Karuro]

Might help a bit..

A few months ago I looked around for Alchemy related stuff. The wiki had some nice interesting information but now to what i actually want to post.

This is an alchemical glyph of the creation of the Philosopher's Stone (FMA and HP fans, don't scream):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Squaredcircle.svg

In short: Triangles and circles are popular.
But maybe someone can discover something with the help of the alchemy symbols on the main Alchemy article if they have the time.
Picture of symbols: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...mbols-1775.jpg

[Konig Des Todes]

At a fast glance at that list of symbols, looks like the following are in our Prophecies circle:
1. lemon (14) - either all 4 spirals, or just the one coming from the Eye of Janthir-like symbol. (The spiral from the "shining triangle" looks like a bloated form of this)
2. Water (34) - the symbol around the center symbol (which I believe to represent Tyria). Caught my eye immediately. Leon, you might have something to look into here!
3. Matter of Heat (37) - the faded large triangle (Could also be "Vital Air (35) by using a line from the "Water" triangle)
4. silver (46) - the fade crecent-symbol near "Ranger"


Possibles: (mostly those undiscerning symbols throughout the map)
1. arsenic (9/54) - the double circle symbol next to what I called the Rift.
2. sugar (11)
3. sorrel(sp?) (13) - symbol at top tip of faded cresent
4. Aether (41) and efsential(sp?) oil (42) might be there in the placement of those tiny circles.

All I can find in similarities (not looking at possible "combined" symbols).

[Konig Des Todes]

Recently got into making GW Videos, so I downloaded the videos on the GW site for possible use. And I found this:

(Video is Final Factions Trailer - High - top video on the page)

What was unknown to be World of Toro or World of Tyria, seems to be Tyria as there is clearly a y with the trailer (picture got shrunk so hard to see as clearly).

Also, note the symbol by "Mesmer" - it's the symbol for the male gender. With the list provided by Karuro, this could mean iron (#48) or #59 (can't read what it says, siderite?).

Another thing, there is a symbol, that at least I didn't see before, above "Elementalist" which looks similar to the Scepter of Orr/Staff of the Mists or perhaps one of the symbols for #30 or #44-59.

Lastly, one of the symbols above the large symbol above "Monk" is more clear as well and looks like #52 (Bismuth)


Thought I'd share this for further thought.

[Paddymew]

A small question: If we are to assume that Lord Odran somehow made a map of the Rift, how come we as PCs are able to aquire it as a map of the Realm of Torment?
I mean, we are told by the woman finishing the quest Map-Travel Inventor that she is a mapmaker, and as cartographers, we "draw" the map ourselves too, when we explore.

Also:
C/E 20 Lord Odran
Grandmaster Cartographer of the Mists (100.00%)

[Naor Vyr]

I know this mostly have nothing to do with the topic actualy, but the 1st thing that popped into my mind by these alchemical circles, is the skill icon above your head when you use a Curse...

Also a thought that seemingly randomly popped into my mind: Can these simbols relate to the Bloodstones anyhow? They are the source of magic after all...

[Konig Des Todes]

I know this mostly have nothing to do with the topic actualy, but the 1st thing that popped into my mind by these alchemical circles, is the skill icon above your head when you use a Curse...

Also a thought that seemingly randomly popped into my mind: Can these simbols relate to the Bloodstones anyhow? They are the source of magic after all...

I've already thought of the Bloodstone thing, the markings related to a Bloodstone has no similarities aside from a triangle inside a circle. So it is hard to tell really. It may have another relation, but not that I could find. As for the curses thing, I'll have to look at that later on (out of town - no Guild Wars).

[Naor Vyr]

I checked the curse thing. Apart from being a circle, it doesnt have much to do with these circles. Sorry for the mislead...

The reason i mentioned the bloodstones is that it would make more sense, than profession names. I just have no idea why profession names would be present on an arcane map-like thing, if not for being part of a code themselves...