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  1. #11
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    Alaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawn
    Just.. seriously. What. Seriously. You have got to be joking me.
    Shawn... Please tell us all where I have made mistakes. Because, from your explanation, I just don't get it. Perhaps I have missed something.


    About builds.

    Is it fair to say that overall, there is no one build that both kills AND caps better in AB than every other build you could possibly thing of? Can we at least agree that if you spec for killing players, you might not bring the exact same skills than if you spec for capping shrines? Unless you're arguing that AB players are so bad, you could hamstorm them and win, in which case I see no point arguing. In that case, build is irrelevant. But you did say that a good build beats a bad one, so build matters, right?

    So a capping build beats a killing build at capping, and a killing build beats a capping build at killing, right?


    About running.

    If you have to choose between running after people, or after running to the next shrine, that's a trade-off right there. You can't run towards both if they are in different directions.


    About survivability.

    For capping, that's irrelevant. As a splinter barrager capper, I really couldn't care for it. The only thing I had to survive was other players, and I just avoided them. I ran around solo capping. Also, NPCs have predictable attacks, so it's far easier to bring the right skills to counter that. No meta here.


    About defending shrines against a team

    In the time the team of 2-3 people cap the shrine I abandoned, the 2-3 solo shrine cappers will likely cap 2 shrines (and a third on the way). The more people clump, the less they can cap unattended shrines. In the extreme, if one side moves as a 12-person mass, that means that they can control at most 1-2 shrines at a time. As soon as they leave a shrine, the opposing team can cap it.

    Do the math. Of course, there's some merit trying to maintain shrines that you capped, but that brings up some calculation of how much resources for how much gain, hence a tradeoff again. If you leave 1 team to defend a shrine, then that's 1 team that won't be capping.
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  2. #12
    GWOnline.Net Member EmptySkull's Avatar
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    Well I don't think you should get totally myopic with capping. I just think you should go into match with primary goal as capping.

    A lot of things (should) influence your tactics. Map, Opponents, understanding of tactics/plan of opponents, if they have a plan at all. Some maps if you are in opposing factions territory and take their advantageous shrines/flags, you can then hold them with one squad to win. That is if the whole opposing team doesn't get together and push you out. But even if they do that leaves flags to be capped by your remaining team.

    What is happening, imho, is when people start screaming cap cap cap, and you just cant gain an advantage is that your team is just outmatched. For whatever reason it may be. And it's easy to blame other people for not capping, than to accept defeat.
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  3. #13
    Well, this is what I try to run in AB:
    CripSlash
    FireEle
    Midline (Ranger, Mesm, something)
    Monk

    Cleaning shrines isn't really a problem with one FireEle. And it can also deal decent damage so not losing very much.
    Because NPC's are so weak you really shouldn't create a build around them.

    I get called noob because of being aggressive in AB (as an example, in my example situation). I made this topic because I don't understand the point of just capping.
    So I'm looking an explanation why people love capping when in my example situation killing is clearly superior. Other example could be that your squad defends a shrine. Enemy squad comes. Your squad kills it quickly (as an example teams with no Monk). No shrines lost or gained, points from killing and enemy down.

    And mobbing has nothing to do with this topic. :/


    Quote Originally Posted by EmptySkull View Post
    ----
    How would you define a primary goal? A thing which you try to do in all cases? A thing which you try to do when it's the best choice?
    Why killing can't be a primary goal?


    And please, I'm not interested in hearing "do X and do Y".
    I'm interested in knowing why people swear in the name of cap
    Is it because AB is just so fail and people fail? Or that it's clearly a superior tactic?
    Last edited by Wethospu; 28-11-2008 at 21:26.

  4. #14
    GWOnline.Net Member Mog Wai's Avatar
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    I think we need to dumb this down even further. Killing other players takes longer than killing the NPCs at the shrines. Why waste time on killing players which results in less points over capping each shrine quickly?

    Its a flip of the coin, you either make a build to cap or kill players. If you make the build to kill players,you will cap slower meaning slower points. Then the opposite for capping teams.

    I play an Fire Ele in AB and I cap like crazy!

  5. #15
    GWOnline.Net Member EmptySkull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wethospu View Post
    .....



    How would you define a primary goal? A thing which you try to do in all cases? A thing which you try to do when it's the best choice?
    Why killing can't be a primary goal?

    ...
    Because AB to GW is Capture the flag. Controlling territories. It scores you more points. And if you spend 15 mins trying to kill one squad, that has control of the shrine you're at, and they have a good monk then you just wasted 15 mins getting no kills and they got 128 points. The whole goal is capping the flag. That is the primary.

    So I don't know what else to say. But Ab is about capping flags. Sure there can be stale mates. But that is because both teams are doing what they are supposed to do, cap flags. But if you run into a team that one squad is running around and fighting and you're team is all capping you will win. Because the points you gain from holding the flags will be higher than the few kills that kill squad gets.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Shawn... Please tell us all where I have made mistakes. Because, from your explanation, I just don't get it. Perhaps I have missed something.
    ----
    If you have to choose between running after people, or after running to the next shrine, that's a trade-off right there. You can't run towards both if they are in different directions.
    Ok, allow me to draw a diagram. What I'm seeing you "shrine capper" advocates describe is scenario 1, in which you don't engage the enemy and just run around and cap shrines. And scenario 2 is what you should be doing.




    As an added bonus I did one for a three shrine scenario too, in which avoiding fighting will also leave you at a disadvantage. This is how Saltspray Beach often starts out, especially if your teammates are bad and don't cap the res. (Although for simplicity's sake I'm assuming the opposing res shrine cappers run off elsewhere rather than try to stupidly gang up and 8v4 you.)

    Spoiler




    It's easy to tell I'm rather bored, huh.
    Last edited by shawn; 28-11-2008 at 22:33.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmptySkull View Post
    Well I don't think you should get totally myopic with capping. I just think you should go into match with primary goal as capping.
    Agreed.

    So killing is worthwhile if you see a weak target and you know, from experience, that it'll be a quick kill.

    But usually, extended fights means that you are wasting time.
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  8. #18
    I subscribe to shawns method. Run. cap Shrine A. Start Running to Shrine B. Encounter Group X. Roflstomp them. Process to cap shrine B. Move on.

    Shrine advantage yay!

    There's also another advantage to wiping a squad on your way to another one. Not only does it give you an immediate advantage, it gives you a long term one as well, they get a few seconds of "I'm dead" and get warped to their base or es shrine, That's more time they have to spend getting to another shrine and possibly a scenario of getting a 2 shrine advantage over them simply by wiping one of their teams.

  9. #19
    @Mog: Killing players actually kills them and makes them DEAD. DEAD MEN won't cap! One squad with fire ele can easily clean a shrine in several seconds. Maybe a team specified for capping can do it few seconds faster. But you know, you should improve what is weak, not what is already good.

    @Empty: So is it reasonable to run 15 minutes trying to find a free shrine?
    I think the goal of AB is to get points. Controlling shrines gives points, killing gives points.
    And when you kill someone you most likely finish off whole squad or make them flee.
    When a squad is down or running you most likely get a shrine advantage.
    Spoiler


    @shawn: Leet paintz :)

    @Alaris: In 4v4 situation, both squads are fighting and not capping. So if you aren't much behind shrines, it's not actually waste of time at all. Just more interesting way to keep shrines equal.



    But so, question still remains. Why cap,cap,cap tactic is so popular?
    Last edited by Wethospu; 29-11-2008 at 13:18.

  10. #20
    Time for my leet paint skillz. This is an entire match, assuming a balanced map.

    So, the "map"
    Spoiler

    Start of the match:
    Spoiler

    match starts, everyone runs to closest shrine caps and goes to next shrine to cap.
    Spoiler

    1 Team from blue starts wiping, 2 escape. 1 Team from red starts wiping, 1 escapes, other 2 teams are in a stalemate. Surviving teams cap
    Spoiler

    Due to 6v5, center skirmish is resolved, blue caps quickly. Surviving red team goes to cap a point, blue responds and sends one team back to defend. Blue team goes to cap, resed red members defend. Blue sends other 2 to begin capping, starts to cap.
    Spoiler

    Blue has advantage on fight 4v3, blue wins and caps. One team proceeds to last red point to cap, red defends, blue collapses on them. Last blue team is victorious and proceeds to cap outside point.
    Spoiler

    Blue wins 8v4, loses 1 person, sends 4 to defend middle, red assaults middle and outside.
    Spoiler

    blue defends and wins due to NPC advantage. Blue sets one team on each closest base, blue only has to keep these bases for 1 minute and it's GG.
    Spoiler


    If you're a better team, it shortens the match significantly, if you're evenly matched it allows you to utilize splitting and collapsing effectively to cause squad wipes and shrine advantage. I made it skewed to keep it short, but a game where both teams actually tried to wipe the team on the way to their next target makes a very dynamic and interesting game. As opposed to playing PvE with points.

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