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  1. #51
    How bout this for a scenario. Say we have 12 experienced players on both sides. Where skill and builds cancel each other out. Each caps shrines the same. Result? I will leave it as an exercise for you all!

    @Mog: So Monks are useless in AB? And I don't see the example. One from the squad dies? Well, rest 3 can do fine without the forth.


    I think we have pretty clearly showed what happens when both teams just cap. That's a lot away from achieving something. Of course it achieves something if your capping build is faster than others but achieving by killing is a lot faster.

    And no, killing doesn't become bad because of all stupid ways how you can fail with it.
    Last edited by Wethospu; 01-12-2008 at 22:30.

  2. #52
    GWOnline.Net Member Mog Wai's Avatar
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    You need to learn how to quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wethospu View Post
    How bout this for a scenario. Say we have 12 experienced players on both sides. Where skill and builds cancel each other out. Each caps shrines the same. Result? I will leave it as an exercise for you all!
    wait what?
    @Mog: So Monks are useless in AB? And I don't see the example. One from the squad dies? Well, rest 3 can do fine without the forth.
    Yes monks are useless in AB.
    I think we have pretty clearly showed what happens when both teams just cap. That's a lot away from achieving something.
    what? no you proved your method doesnt work. Im getting a headache reading this post.

  3. #53
    I can see it from your reply.

    So what do you do when a squad slows you down and kills you in 5 seconds?

    And capping isn't my method. I wish you could actually try discuss with me. You know, arguments and that kind of stuff and not just "I like it my way". Or does it just work for you?

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil View Post
    (The paintjobs are bad by the way. Not even ryuu's depicts a match accurately.)
    I started with the intention of accurately portraying a match.

    Then I realized I was talking about 40-50(or more) pictures. And somehow my inclination to accurately draw it went away(also people would have just been like "get a life" and not looked at that many anyway...).


    ------------------

    I see mobbing brought up alot. A lot of the common "capping > killing" argument is "well what if they have a mob of 8 or 12?"

    Well no ****, you go around and outcap them. We're talking about if the other team ISN'T completely retarded though and stays 4/4/4.

    Since everyone's so intent on equal builds and skill here. let's assume everyone's skill value is 7 (because you can totally quantifiy it) and everyone runs a cripslash, a ranger, an ele and a monk. They all go to cap. It comes down entirely to who's homw map it is. If they have the same build, and same skill, it is logical to assume that they will cap at the same speed. If they cap at the same speed, the home team will win because they will start out with a few more points then the other team.

    On he other hand, when they run, they both have the same skills and eventually, the ranger will land a dshot on the monks important skill and they'll be able to score kills. If they decide to run away because they lost one, you still come out on top because they will cap slightly slower and you will gain an advantage.

    "cap cap cap" does not really work, people THINK it works, because that's all they've played but if everyone runs around each other until the game is over it comes down to a) luck (neutral map) b) homefield advantage.


    EDIT: I don't see alaris's stance.

    You gain 0 advantage over someone by running past them and capping. On the other hand you gain a very large advantage over someone if you kill them before capping. No one is saying " run around kill **** and don't cap" people are saying "proceed in your circle, if you see a squad slow down and kill them. If they're running away you can usually snare and kill one, which is still 4 points and slows down they're capping which still provides an advantage.

    It isn't that we're trying to portray it in a way that's bias, that's simply your choices. Half the groups in AB don't even have monks and have pretty terrible self healing, it's easy to roll them and move on. The other half while you're stalled it effectively becomes 8 people on each side capping until someone retreats due to a kill, or they wipe. It may be high risk with a pug, but it's still high reward, compared to no risk/0 reward. (if you're looking at reward as an advantage over your opponents.)
    Last edited by Ryuujinx; 02-12-2008 at 01:25.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuujinx View Post
    I started with the intention of accurately portraying a match.

    Then I realized I was talking about 40-50(or more) pictures.
    I was actually thinking more along the linkes of: no map looks like that. So even if you made 400 pictures it still would have been incorrect.
    "cap cap cap" does not really work, people THINK it works, because that's all they've played but if everyone runs around each other until the game is over it comes down to a) luck (neutral map) b) homefield advantage.
    In general I like it when my allies spend the majority of their time capping. If my allies spend time killing, they end up getting killed. If they spend their time capping, they occasionally die but not too often. Plus it leaves me and my team the ability to score the kills and hamper the enemy, a position I much prefer over capping.

  6. #56
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    Also. Killing random crap in ab is ten times the fun it is to run in circles chasing people with stupid builds.

    Anyone not able to kill off an opposing team of 4 players in 30 seconds needs better builds and/or players. It's ab for heavens sake (if that's your thing).

    Offensive play, that's something long forgotten.
    You just need to pump that bravemode hard and push the limits.

  7. #57
    GWOnline.Net Member Offatwork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmptySkull View Post
    Having capped flags gets you points faster than killing.
    Actually no. If your team can pull it off, it is more beneficial to try to assassinate the other team. Why, well for a list of reasons:

    • A)You will have more shrines than the opposing team.
    • B)You will have eliminated an opposing force, which means less manpower for them, which means slower capping speed/general efficiency for that team.


    Whereas if you look at the opposing side of this scenario:

    • You and the opposing team will cap an equal amount of shrines.


    So it is actually more beneficial yet more risky (since you have to apply correct judgment) to take on opposing players.

    It could take a lot longer than 7 seconds to kill someone.
    Just like in any game in Guild Wars, if you are not doing something productive in a certain area, then you need to try to do something productive in a different area. This is exactly the case in this scenario. Of course you do not want to have a long drawn out battle if there is more of your team fighting than the other team. The chances of this happening with a stable squad is very slim though; strength in numbers.

    And you would only get 3 points.
    No. You will get 3 points and their shrine that they were trying to cap.

    But if you hold 3 flags when the game checks, you get 3 points every 7 secs. And if you hold 4, 5, or 6(which is what you will hold if the opposing team is fighting, not capping) then you get 4,5,6 points every 7 secs.
    This whole argument fails miserably. Why? Because your are not only eliminating the opposing team, but also taking their intended shrine. Let me give you an example:

    In any map of AB, the usual tactic is to split up 4-4-4 and flank the left, mid, and right sides. Squad A1, who is focused on killing and capping, go to cap their closest shrine. Squad A2 does the same thing, only with their closest shrine. Now Squad A1 runs for the next shrine, so does Squad A2. Squad A1 realizes that they can beat Squad A2 and take their shrine at the same time because Squad A2 are a bunch of capping Elementalists. Squad A1 slaughters Squad A2 and takes their shrine. What is the end scenario?

    • Team A has 2 shrines, Team B has none or at most only 1 shrine on that side of the map.
    • Squad A2 from Team B is destroyed - less manpower for Team B to cap shrines.
    So Team A is able to gain more momentum overall.


    I'm sorry bud, you're completely wrong here. Overall, it is more safe to all just cap but your team will have a very tough time trying to gain momentum without killing players. This is why you see so many matches with such close games when everyone is just focused on capping Yet you would see way more one-sided matches with people who competently know how to cap and kill against people who just want to cap; the other team doesn't have the manpower to cap.
    Last edited by Offatwork; 02-12-2008 at 02:12.

  8. #58
    GWOnline.Net Member Offatwork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmptySkull View Post
    Because Shawn's pictures are oversimplified scenarios.
    They are not oversimplified. They are presented in a way so that everyone can understand the benefits of capping and killing.

    You can't count on a skirmish to be so simple. You know you are gonna win? What about when you face a larger group, your 4 squad against and 5,6,7,8 or 12 mob. What if when taking down that 4 squad you lose one of you squad? To many variables to think those diagrams are the way its gonna happen every time.
    Again, just like in everything in this game, if you follow one tactic like a robot *Ahem* just capping *Ahem*, you're going to suck hardcore. In the situation you presented (a mob shows up), it would be more beneficial to flee the scenario and out-cap them; since they ARE mobbing (wasted manpower to cap). There should always be an ebb and flow of matches. If a group you are fighting gets assistance, there are ways to counter this as well (as I just stated, I'll bold it for you)

    How bout this for a scenario. Say we have 12 experienced players on both sides. Where skill and builds cancel each other out. Each kills each other the same. The last remaining variable is points from shrines. That is what wins in AB.
    No one is saying capping is unimportant; since it is. However, people who say to JUST cap are people who are not looking to gain momentum in the match; since they can't. Again, there is an ebb and flow to a match, if a certain tactic isn't working, you shouldn't continue doing it. However, if your team isn't prepared to even have a quick rumble now and then, you're going to just kill your team or severely slow them down.
    Last edited by Offatwork; 02-12-2008 at 02:40.

  9. #59
    GWOnline.Net Member Offatwork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mog Wai View Post
    You spend most of the time chasing and killing rather than gaining points.
    This is really only the case if your team isn't prepared for kiters. If your team has a snare, this isn't an issue.

    Another issue: you run across a few tanks. Within the few seconds it takes you to realize you are wasting your time, you could have been capping shrines. All of these seconds matter.
    If you do not have a way of dealing with tanks (no enchant removal, for example) that's your own team's fault for not bringing it. Frankly, if you run into a few tanks, you don't need to kill them, all you need to do is occupy their space at their shrine (if your team has more players) and take the shrine that way. Don't even need to deal with the tankers - they aren't going to win. Ether that, or move on to a different area chances are they won't have a speed boost.

    You are making the assumption that people would just be chasing down other people within a match. This is definitely not the case with a smart team. They will realize they are wasting time and move on to a different area, ether to force a fight or to just simply gain/maintain the advantage. Short answer: They are called "control points" for a reason.
    Last edited by Offatwork; 02-12-2008 at 02:43.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuujinx View Post
    EDIT: I don't see alaris's stance.
    I've read your post and it seems that you agree with me.

    Basically, I've been saying that some other posters don't consider the situation realistically. I find that poor arguing, and I was trying to point it out.

    But if you think that killing down someone while not really slowing down is a good thing, then we agree. The question is always a cost/benefit analysis. How much do you need to slow down capping in order to get the kills?

    The case where two teams of 4 meet in the middle and both stop to fight just isn't realistic. Most of the time one team will run past. Most of the time, they will also be able to do that without losses. In that scenario, the second team slowing down to fight just lost some time. Not much, but much more if they actually pursue instead of move on to the next shrine.

    Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not.
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