Capping, just don't get it

[EmptySkull]

I am not arguing against fighting. But even in your drawing you have a flag that is capped after you kill.

I am now arguing that the quoted statement is not a valid tactic in AB.

Killing: Focus on smart killing, cap when killing isn't possible

So if your kill strategy fails, you should go cap? hUH?

O and I love how in everyone's drawing they assume they win their skirmish when fighting. Because in your scenario, if you lose that skirmish it's checkmate.

[Mog Wai]

@Mog: Killing players actually kills them and makes them DEAD. DEAD MEN won't cap! One squad with fire ele can easily clean a shrine in several seconds. Maybe a team specified for capping can do it few seconds faster. But you know, you should improve what is weak, not what is already good.

Umm no.

So what if you killed 4 players, you still took more time killing players while their other teammates are capping. You are assuming that all of their other teammates aren't capping or your teammates are following the same tactics that you are, killing players. You cannot assume that. The best bet is to go for the shrines, killing the NPCs and only fighting small skirmishes when needed.

The bottom line is that its easier to cap the shrines then kill players. Why go for the harder of the two?

[Simply Kedde]

Because if your team is anywhere near decent, you'll roll 99% of the teams people have in AB.
That's part of why it's effective.

[raspberry jam]

Cap tactic is popular because it is reliable. When a good player sees an opportunity to fight he can pretty reliably say that it's going to be one of:

* We will win (fight)
* We will win, but it will take ages (i.e. enemies tank you) and we can ignore them (avoid)
* They will win, and there is no point in fighting (avoid)
* They will win, but I/we alone can hold them up for long enough to make it worth while/allow reinforcements to arrive (fight)
* It's going to be even (fight or avoid depending on situation)

When a bad player sees an opportunity to fight, he sees:

* Enemies ahead, outcome of battle unknown

In that situation you can choose to fight and maybe (probably) give the enemy a shrine advantage, or, you can cap the next shrine faster than the enemy and slowly build up an advantage. After all, since most players have more PvE experience than PvP such, they are more used to fighting NPCs than other players.

In other words it's popular because people are bad, but good enough to realize that they are bad.

Because AB to GW is Capture the flag. Controlling territories.

Please don't use the term "capture the flag" unless you actually know what it means.

[Akirai Annuvil]

So what if you killed 4 players, you still took more time killing players while their other teammates are capping.

Killing 4 players means gaining uuh 12 points, iirc. It takes 7 seconds to gain 1 point from capping a shrine. Let's say it takes 7 seconds to cap a shrine. Assuming nobody recaps the shrines you've capped, it would still take ~30 seconds to even out the score. So as long as you can kill 4 players within 30 seconds you've gained yourself an absolute, undisputable advantage.
If it takes longer than that, the gains are impossible to quantify. The opposing team loses out on, what, 40 seconds of capping though, just because of the respawn timer.

Whatever though. Quite literally everyone's who's posted in this thread so far is in agreeance that you occasionally should try and score some kills in AB. How often and how big seems mostly dependant on personal skill.

[shawn]

O and I love how in everyone's drawing they assume they win their skirmish when fighting. Because in your scenario, if you lose that skirmish it's checkmate.

Yeah, it's AB, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that if I were to make a team on alliance chat, that we wouldn't be dying to the tank w/mos and meteor shower rangers on the other team.

Of course I realize not everyone has the luxury of being in an alliance of top 10 guilds, but come on. When 95% of your opponents run ridiculous **** like the aforementioned meteor shower rangers, then I'm pretty sure that even most people on this forum can win. Unless of course you're luxon, in which case I pity you if you're playing when Snuff from [rawr] decides to take us luxon stomping.

[Alaris]

I get it... I just need the roflstomp build. Anyone can ping that pls?

Ok, allow me to draw a diagram.

It's easy to tell I'm rather bored, huh.

Diagram shows exactly what you said in words, thus it is 100% redundant.

The part I don't get is the part where you always rolfstomp the enemy. How does that work?

I subscribe to shawns method. Run. cap Shrine A. Start Running to Shrine B. Encounter Group X. Roflstomp them. Process to cap shrine B. Move on.

I tried to look for the Roflstomp build on pvxwiki. Could you ping it pls?

So as long as you can kill 4 players within 30 seconds you've gained yourself an absolute, undisputable advantage.

Roflstomp build again? I mean, that's killing 4 in 30 secs *without losing a team member*

Of course I realize not everyone has the luxury of being in an alliance of top 10 guilds, but come on. When 95% of your opponents run ridiculous **** like the aforementioned meteor shower rangers, then I'm pretty sure that even most people on this forum can win. Unless of course you're luxon, in which case I pity you if you're playing when Snuff from [rawr] decides to take us luxon stomping.

Mmmmm, talking strategy assuming your team is running roflstomp, and the other is running lolhamstormechomendingftl.

[EmptySkull]

Cap tactic is popular because it is reliable.

I disagree. Most people use cap tactics because it is the primary goal of AB.

When a good player sees an opportunity to fight he can pretty reliably say that it's going to be one of:

* We will win (fight)
* We will win, but it will take ages (i.e. enemies tank you) and we can ignore them (avoid)
* They will win, and there is no point in fighting (avoid)
* They will win, but I/we alone can hold them up for long enough to make it worth while/allow reinforcements to arrive (fight)
* It's going to be even (fight or avoid depending on situation)

When a bad player sees an opportunity to fight, he sees:

* Enemies ahead, outcome of battle unknown

In that situation you can choose to fight and maybe (probably) give the enemy a shrine advantage, or, you can cap the next shrine faster than the enemy and slowly build up an advantage. After all, since most players have more PvE experience than PvP such, they are more used to fighting NPCs than other players.

Mostly right. ONLY if you take a guild/alliance/friend squad with Vent/TS you can make those decisions as a team.
But if you join in a random group with the other 2 squads probably random people, there is no real tactics.

In other words it's popular because people are bad, but good enough to realize that they are bad.

hmmmf, WOW!

Please don't use the term "capture the flag" unless you actually know what it means.

What are you talking about. I know what capture the flag means. I've been playing video games before you were even a itch in your daddy's pants! edit: I've forgotten more about capture the flag than you have ever learned about gaming.

Yeah, it's AB, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that if I were to make a team on alliance chat, that we wouldn't be dying to the tank w/mos and meteor shower rangers on the other team.

Of course I realize not everyone has the luxury of being in an alliance of top 10 guilds, but come on. When 95% of your opponents run ridiculous **** like the aforementioned meteor shower rangers, then I'm pretty sure that even most people on this forum can win. Unless of course you're luxon, in which case I pity you if you're playing when Snuff from [rawr] decides to take us luxon stomping.

Yeah I understand that when you have an good squad/team build with good communication that you can win most of the time. But you still can't depend that the other 8 people are gonna go around capping shrines while you and your squad just goes and kills. And now matter how good you 4 man squad is, If the opposing team is mobbing you gonna get wiped or at least have to retreat to flags you already have capped. You will lose.

I do think we all are basically arguing for the same thing. As in all kinds of PvP you need some basic skill in how to make/use a build. And good skills working with a team. Unless you don't do either of those then fail.

When it comes to AB you need to consider the map and your team build to be the most successful as a squad. Bring a good build for what you want to do as a squad. And continue to adjust what you are doing one the fly during the match to counter what the opposing team is doing. But as with all things requiring a team. Your team is only as strong as your weakest link.

[Mog Wai]

Killing 4 players means gaining uuh 12 points, iirc. It takes 7 seconds to gain 1 point from capping a shrine. Let's say it takes 7 seconds to cap a shrine. Assuming nobody recaps the shrines you've capped, it would still take ~30 seconds to even out the score. So as long as you can kill 4 players within 30 seconds you've gained yourself an absolute, undisputable advantage.
If it takes longer than that, the gains are impossible to quantify. The opposing team loses out on, what, 40 seconds of capping though, just because of the respawn timer.

You cannot go into AB assuming that it only takes 30 seconds to kill four targets. The time it takes to kill a player or kill a team is not set in stone. My ele build I run in AB can kill the Master of damage in 5 seconds, does that mean I can assume it takes a similar amount of time to kill a player? No you cannot assume that. You can however make the assumption on how quickly you can cap a shrine with four people. NPC's are easily killed in what, 10 to 15 seconds depending on your team's build? Again, its all based on efficiencies and what is guaranteed to work. The basic problem with going with a team that is built to kill players is that you arent taking into consideration your other 8 members and the other eight opponents. While you are killing, they could be capping.

Whatever though. Quite literally everyone's who's posted in this thread so far is in agreeance that you occasionally should try and score some kills in AB.

Correct

[Wethospu]

I am not arguing against fighting. But even in your drawing you have a flag that is capped after you kill.

That's the whole point of my mentioned tactics and that's why killing gives an advantage. But as you can see, focusing on capping isn't giving an advantage.

I am now arguing that the quoted statement is not a valid tactic in AB.

You agree with picture but don't agree with strategy in it? Or what??

So if your kill strategy fails, you should go cap? hUH?

Yes, if you see an enemy which you can't kill then you shouldn't try to kill it.

O and I love how in everyone's drawing they assume they win their skirmish when fighting. Because in your scenario, if you lose that skirmish it's checkmate.

That's the whole point of PvP.

Umm no.

So what if you killed 4 players, you still took more time killing players while their other teammates are capping.

Guess what, both teams have 3 squads. My squad gained an advantage by killing their squad.

You are assuming that all of their other teammates aren't capping or your teammates are following the same tactics that you are, killing players. You cannot assume that.

Nope, I haven't talked anything about other squads. If all other squads were capping then we still got an advantage.

The best bet is to go for the shrines, killing the NPCs and only fighting small skirmishes when needed.

The bottom line is that its easier to cap the shrines then kill players. Why go for the harder of the two?

As we have pointed out, killing gives an advantage. If you are bad then you should lose. That's how it works.

--Mmmmm, talking strategy assuming your team is running roflstomp, and the other is running lolhamstormechomendingftl.

Actually, roflstomping isn't the point here. Even though squads had similar builds, killing is still effective.
If things are even it doesn't really matter if the fight takes 3 hours. Your squad is against their squad. Both squads aren't capping. It's not like you try to kill their squad and they multiply and half of them go to capping and half stay fighting.

It's pretty simple. 12 players in both sides. 4 fighting in both sides. 12 - 4 = 8. 8 free players in both sides.
Now if we go to advanced stuff, fight lasting forever can give an advantage. As an example if you have more shrines and your team isn't failing too much.

I disagree. Most people use cap tactics because it is the primary goal of AB.

Nope, the primary goal is winning game. You win the game by getting an advantage. As we have showed, killing gives an advantage.

Mostly right. ONLY if you take a guild/alliance/friend squad with Vent/TS you can make those decisions as a team.
But if you join in a random group with the other 2 squads probably random people, there is no real tactics.

I make PuG teams almost every day. Of course you can't get decent people all the time. But we still mostly roll because enemy has more creative stuff.

--Yeah I understand that when you have an good squad/team build with good communication that you can win most of the time.

Because skill level of AB is so low, this isn't necessary.

But you still can't depend that the other 8 people are gonna go around capping shrines while you and your squad just goes and kills. And now matter how good you 4 man squad is, If the opposing team is mobbing you gonna get wiped or at least have to retreat to flags you already have capped. You will lose.

I don't know what magic tricks I/we must do that you understand what tactic we are talking about. I thought those pictures were pretty clear.
Smart killing DOESN'T mean "Oh lulz, waz daz mobz?? hehe die mobz upz we deadz".

--The basic problem with going with a team that is built to kill players is that you arent taking into consideration your other 8 members and the other eight opponents. While you are killing, they could be capping.--

You don't build teams to cap. Usually you build one character to clear shrines and that's the fire-ele. Now you got an ultimate squad, clears a shrine fast and can also achive kills!

While you kill, you get an advantage. As we have pointed in many pictures (and probably in a text too), you capture a shrine after it.
As we have pointed in many pictures (and probably in a text too), capping doesn't achieve much. So if they want to cap while your squad is getting an advantage, it's their loss.