new to GvG, and PvP in general, so i've been watching a few matches on observe mode, and what i've seen has brought up a few questions.
1) When observing a match, what do you look for? i've mostly been watching monks and warriors, as these 2 classes take up most of a team, and therefore are key to any team build. i've seen how some monks weapon swap and move, and this has helped me, but watching warriors hasn't given me any tips for that class. what should i be watching for? For midline players, what is the best clue that i'm watching a good Me, R, or Ele?
2) How are the observe matches selected? is it just the most recent GvG games or is there another factor?
3) Positioning. all other things equal, will a team that works for better position always come out ahead? Should frontliners charge into the backline, or do you want to harass their midline to improve your position?
4) What is more important, controlling the flag stand or pushing into the opposing base, or do they both go hand in hand? (from what i've seen, the team that controls the stand can always push into the base. am i overlooking something?)
5) Have splits fallen out of favor, or is that why a few teams run 3 monks? i haven't watched a split team in an observe match yet, so i'm wondering if this has just become impractical...
thanks for any insight you can give.
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26-06-2009, 15:02 #1
Observe Mode, and what to be watching for
26-06-2009, 21:16 #2
You can probably focus on the target role you want to start out with and then branch out on what you want to be looking after.
Say you're looking at the frontline, following the other thread.
The standard thing will be two teams fighting each other head on in 7/7 or 8/8.
Here you'll notice how both frontliners work together towards their goal in different ways.
How the interact depends a lot on what builds they run, how the rest of the team is set up and how the opponent team is set up.
Right now, you usually see mostly axe and sword warriors running around, so I'll assume this for now.
Mostly, you should notice that the frontline often does not attack the same target, but rather tries to pressure the enemy by hitting different targets constantly to avoid whatever antimelee the enemy team will output.
However, the most effective way of killing someone always will be compressing damage.
You'll see when the fronline converges on a specific target to unload their damage.
Usually, the entire midline will follow and help with either more damage or disruption in the enemy defense.
Playing around in a standard setting like this is when you really get to use all the micromanagement tricks that will improve your performance, such as faking targets, quarterknocking/stepping/rupting, faking targets, drawing prot, drawing interrupts, swapping etc.
You'll see good players do this all the time.
However, this only goes as far as general play and facing teams head on. When split action happens it changes dramatically.
Warriors are not the strongest split characters since they need melee range, have no self protection other than armor and need to build up adrenaline.
They are however good at complimenting a smaller split team, often a ranger/ele and some sort of heals on either a flagger or a monk.
In splits every decision you make often has much more of an impact so timing and anticipation are key skills to have.
You'll often need to play either highly aggressively or very defensively meaning you either go balls deep and paintrain people and hope you win, or you do nothing but disrupt the enemy offense to lessen their damage output.
That's all assuming you really happen to end up in skirmish fights in the first place.
The most important thing you can do is to use your brain.
Your radar is your best friend, it tells you when and where you can move to create an opportunity and when you're in deep **** because you did something wrong.
Knowing when to move where on different maps and how your movement will logically affect the opposing team is good.
...Long rant on frontline behaviour.
The thing is you can't simply look at a couple persons on a team and get it all.
You'll get to see how the entire team interacts and works as a single organ if done properly.
If one part of the team fails, the entire team is likely to suffer heavily from it so while you will probably need to start with your attention focused at something specific, you'll also need to look at the entire team as a whole as well as the opposing team.
Observe matches really aren't predictable.
There are however trends you can follow.
Get familiar with some guilds that consistently do well, examples including KMD, StS, etc. and you'll know that if this team is in the match, you can probably learn something.
Also look at the map it's played on.
If you want to look at good splitting action, you should probably go for maps that favor splitting such as frozen, solitude, uncharted and so on.
Likewise, maps that favor 8v8 play like imperial, druids, weeping stone, dead and so on will be likely to provide better observe qualities for that kind of play.
Always is a strong word, too strong.
Positioning is one of the utmost important factors in the game and dictates the gameplay of the match.
Positioning happens on several layers, micro and macro.
Positioning will mostly be something you think about when you choose when to position yourself to your team and the enemy team, knowing whats important and so on.
The other part will be prevalent when splitting mostly, forcing skirmish situations etc. will require you to set it up before you want to actually do meaning you need to position yourself correctly.
Furthermore, you need to know where and when to do what to make it have an impact that is positive for you.
Since it's so important, its quite obvious that a team with superior positioning in general will be at a huge advantage over the other team.
It can though, be because of build and map choice or quite simply because one team is just more skilled than the other.
Both will be very easy to tell apart.
Tactics has so many factors involved its hardly explainable without a display of them all.
Its rather obvious that your teambuild has a huge impact on your tactical layout, as in splits being about the enemy base and 8v8 play being a lot about flags.
But knowing how to adapt to your opponent opting to make a change in their tactics is crucial.
If your enemy has strong control over the stand and you're getting behind on flags, you might want to consider trying something different instead of slamming your head against a brick wall until you lose.
Instead you could try splitting a couple people off and let them boost and push into your base to force them to respond.
This gives you at least half the initiative. In fact it can even allow you to get ahead if they respond in the wrong way.
The situation you describe sounds rather like the controlling team just has the upper hand in general.
If you make a mistake, be it little or huge, it can cost you all control over the map and in terms the game.
It's then up to you to break with that trend since the enemy will know all they have to do is keep on doing the same and keep you from doing anything different.
Splits certainly aren't out of favor, they're actually very strong given the right maps and proper tactics, they're very hard to beat.
Running 3 monks is more of a response to Prism being nerfed and fire eles beasting them in general than to splits being bad, in fact its quite the opposite.
You need a monk in your base to defend against the damage a split team can output.
This gets so long I can't address everything I should and would :<
26-06-2009, 22:30 #3
Thank you for taking the time to enumerate on the subject. i greatly appreciate it! you've given me plenty to think about as i observe more over the next couple of days.
We're hoping to have our first GvG practice next weekend (i'm hoping that we have 8 players...), and by then i'm sure i'll have more specific questions. the teamquitter site gave me some great information that i've already been spreading to my alliancemates (i poked around other threads and learned more about rangers and mesmers than i ever thought i'd know, and i'd never thought about the importance of learning the casting animations for certain skills. that showed me what we need our first practice to be all about).
Luckily, we have a fairly mature alliance who are realistic and we all understand we're going to take our lumps as we learn this format, and develop team cohesion. you've been a great help in reducing the learning curve, and for that you have all of our thanks!
27-06-2009, 01:29 #4
Glad to hear it.
Let me ask you about your situation.
Do you have a specific playstyle or guild hall in mind you want to play on?
Anything in particular your team wants to focus on?
Otherwise just ask.
27-06-2009, 06:48 #5
Our guild hall is Wizard Isle, and as we're very low rank i figure most of our first matches will take place there, or in one of our alliance's halls (i think the other guild that PvPs with us has the burning Isle, but i'll have to check on that). based on that, i was going to try to work out a split team that would be able to hold with 5-6 at the stand, but still work together well as a group of 8 at the start of battles.
at this point, our team just wants to focus on working together (we do have Vent, so that will help), and not getting embarrassed. many of the people i'm getting to do this are very skeptical, based on their prior PvP experiences. i've posted the links you provided in our forum, so that our warriors can learn the difference between tanking and being a warrior. we've got an alliance member who monks really well in AB, and my wife and i both play monk, but where we're short is midliners and flagrunners, and based on what i've read and watched, those are just as important as the front and back lines.
until we can get together, and i can take stock of what roles we can fill, its going to be hard for me to ask for more specific help. i read that rawrspike and bsurge were fairly forgiving flexible teams, but i've not been able to find those builds listed. could you point me in the direction of what you think a solid team build for beginners would be? i think that would be very good for me to look at now.
27-06-2009, 12:21 #6
rawr spike while at one time was forgivable is a dead horse and has been nerfed in every imaginable way. Attempting to run rawr spike now would just end in failure.
I am going to mention a couple "Meta" team builds and my thoughts on them
as far as builds I like Balanced
however this build is not forgiving at all is dependent on good positioning and forcing the enemy into bad positioning to get kills not a beginner build.
as far as a Forgivable build the so called "Balanced hexway" may be a little easyer for you when first starting
Being a Pressure based build you won't need perfectly Timed spikes to get kills and most people coming in from PvE land understand how hexes work so that is a big bonus for you
oh one more thing on the PvX page the Primary war is running Primal not a good idea stick with Standard shock axe for slot 1, less explosions from strat caller are a good thing
07-07-2009, 16:48 #7
well, we took our first two shots to the nose last night in GvG. both matches were played in our home hall (Wizard's Isle). the first thing i learned is that i'll not just ask for alliancemates to join us unless they are willing to adjust their builds (midliners not taking rez, eles insisting on bringing Meteor Shower killed us in the second battle). We got our 5 core members and then just asked if anyone wanted to join, it was absolute chaos in getting set up and in the games because of this, so from now on we'll only go in with organized builds so we're not fighting an uphill battle. (i wanted us to play a couple of battles even if disorganized, hoping that we might increase interest in our alliancemates, but i won't do that again).
the first match we were pitted against a guild ranked in the top 500 (476ish i think). we got rolled in about 7 minutes (my wife says faster, but i know they got 3 morale boosts) i don't think they flawlessed us, but they might have. we were uncoordinated, had horrible team cooperation, and they exploited every stupid thing we did. lots to learn from, and i didn't feel bad about them saying 'gg first timers' at the end (mostly cause it was our first time).
the second match was more frustrating. we lost to 4 humans and 4 heroes, and this was the match that solidified my belief in no longer accepting anyone to join us. we had the opposing team on the ropes, both monks down, necro down, so it was just the players (all R or P mixes with pets) when our second warrior took off to assault the base npcs, the flagger quit running the flag, and i couldn't get a heal off when chasing after overextended players (was on monk for this one, and i'm a bad, bad monk). With better organization and teamwork we would have beaten this team instead of losing after 10-12 minutes. Our main frontliner told me that we should have wasted this team, and after watching the match on obs i saw that he had a point.
so now i'll ask for some advice. the players we have would lead us to a physical heavy team (we could run 4 warriors without mine, not to mention paragons that 4 of us have), but i fear that phys shutdown is too strong for us to go this way... is there a viable physical heavy option out there? based on our home turf, we need to have a flexible split ability as i don't see our opponents sticking everyone to the stand when the back way to the defenders base is flat out unguarded (can avoid the archers posted near the back gate quite easily, and get right to the GL group). i was thinking 3 wars (shock axe, hundred blades, and dev hammer), 1 ranger (Mel shot AP), 2 monks, MB ele (with a heal or two), and the flagger (ideally the ele/rt build, but i think a ranger with escape and nat stride might work as well), where the ranger, MB ele and flagger could react to splits, and the ranger/ele could split to gank NPCs...
Opening strategies. I'm of the opinion that our team should rush the stand with all 8 players, push forward to their side of the stand, and hamper them from the beginning (especially on our home turf), but we played very tentative, everyone stopping at the first sight of an opponent. this made sure we didn't overextend at the start, but i believe we gave up position and this led to our downfall in the second match. What do you recommend at the start of a match regarding the stand?
are there any links to good strategies for Wizard's Isle that you know of? i've found some basic things, but nothing in depth...
is there anywhere i can go and have decent luck recruiting people that would GvG with us? I've put a recruitment post up in this forum, and i browse the guru forums from time to time, sending PMs to those i think would fit in with us, but so far those avenues have provided no results, and realistically we need 2 more members in our guild to get a solid team, or 2 guests that are up for playing with novices such as us.
07-07-2009, 20:36 #8
Realistically, your team should function as a single dynamic force that waves forth and back depending on how you opponent acts and reacts to you.
Let your frontline and offensive midline push decently forward so that your flagger won't have trouble with getting a flag in.
So long as your offense pressures the opponent, your defense can follow them when they move backwards and keep on moving away from the damage.
Wizard's is pretty straigth forward.
You can split the vulnerable targets up in 3 so the enemy frontline needs to run around the small fences constantly if they want to switch targets.
Of course, using common sense for when to push and when to pull back.
Recruiting I know little about.
TeamQQ doesn't have much for the entry level, but what you could do is make a thread and ask if anyone is willing to try and mentor your team, play a few matches, give advice etc.
Physical heavy teams are very out of favor currently.
There are a million stances being used on basically every character, and they're usually not too flexible leaving them vulnerable to splits and hex overloads.
08-07-2009, 15:16 #9
i'd never thought about using the fences in that manner... Of course the point is moot after i got home from work last night and was informed that all the other core members of my guild team quit. :( perfect ending to a f'd up day...
i appreciate all the advice and help you have given, i'll just have to apply it to the PvP arenas that i do have available unless a miracle happens and i get 6 new members all of a sudden (snowballs chance in hell comes to mind). (and joining a different guild is not an option for me at the current time, it would cause entirely too many problems at home...)
i posted in the guest thread on TeamQQ forums, hoping that maybe there is a non champ guild that needs a couple of bodies. hopefully i'll have better luck guesting for another guild than i had recruiting for mine...
Last edited by Tzalaran; 08-07-2009 at 19:38. Reason: added last paragraph instead of double posting
05-08-2009, 02:32 #10
1: I just look at the party window. From there, I can tell which 64 skills each team is running.
2: Obs matches are of top 200 guilds.
4: Flag stand.
5: Sort of. If you don't wipe the other team and they don't wipe you in 27 minutes, it's basically a GL zergrush.