As information has been released throughout the course of the Guild Wars series, along with the buildup to Guild Wars 2, we have continually seen that the history is not quite as accurate as it may have seemed. Likewise, we have seen that the Gods aren’t precisely what they were made out to be by the old tales. This being the case, I have an alternate theory, that may not hold any water whatsoever, but could provide us with an entirely new view of the formation of Tyria and its development.
[I have cut out a portion here to try and lessen the length, not to mention after looking over what I wrote, it seemed entirely irrelevant, much like the first title I had written.]
The New Races.
These are the races that arrived with the Gods arrival or shortly thereafter and, in the case of both, may be native to Tyria, I will count the Margonites as a separate race here, but for no other reason than their anatomical and physiological differences in comparison to humans.
- The Forgotten.
- The Margonites.
If you think I have overlooked any, please inform me.
Disclaimers aside, these races all began to appear when the Gods came into the picture. The Forgotten were the first race to come into the picture along with them, as they guided the other races around while the Gods “created” the world around them. Other data, such as the very existence of the Old Races contradicts this account, but it remains unclear what exactly the Gods were doing during this period of “creation”. Many suspect it to be terraformation, or in other words, simply the reshaping of the land.
Yet this still doesn’t precisely fit together. Why would the Gods need to employ another race to shepherd the others around? Why does humanity appear to come so shortly after they do? Why do the Gods not punish humanity when they break the balance created by the Forgotten? This is where I will provide the two possibilities I see existing at this point based on the evidence we have regarding the era of the New Races, but do note, these possibilities contradict one another intentionally.
Also, a warning, this is long, this may appear bloated, and the second part confusing, with this being the case, if you haven’t the time, I’ve cut both sections down into point form at the bottom under In Summation, capturing the overall point of each as briefly as possible. As with anything though, to get the full idea, I advise reading over each section in full.
I have before asked the question of why the Forgotten were hunting down Jadoth as described in the Scriptures of Abaddon, and, although I do not think I have mentioned it before, I also questioned why the Forgotten would have armies and warships. There has been one mention of the Forgotten’s reign over their territory as an empire, in the description of the Lair of the Forgotten:
The Manuscripts suggest to us that the Forgotten are not native to the land, in fact, they directly state it. However, in these same lines, they state that they were brought to Tyria for a purpose that current evidence directly contradicts. The current idea, that the Gods merely reshaped the world rather than creating it, would seem to not question that data, as races would need to be guided as mountain ranges were being formed or land shifted about. Yet, I don’t think so; I don’t see why, if we’re questioning the very creation of the planet, we would not question the reasons that brought the Forgotten to Tyria, if the original cause of those reasons seems untrue.Originally Posted by Lair of the Forgotten
That being the case, I think it’s partly true, as is the case with many lies or the general passage of information during earlier years. I do think that the Forgotten held a benevolent empire, teaching the other races that were willing to learn and backing down from those that weren’t, such as the case with the Charr and their backing down from that region. But where does the shepherding part of the tale come into play? I think that the Gods may have been amongst the first humans to arrive on Tyria, and to an extent, I do think they reshaped the world, albeit perhaps not in the way we would think. (Gently and softly, for example.)
During this, the Forgotten Empire would have been torn apart by the restructuring of the continent, and they, in their benevolence, would move those races around which had accepted them, to prevent their extinction. Somewhen during this tumultuous time, humanity would appear, and taking advantage of the Forgotten’s stretched resources, would begin to divide up parts of their empire for their own. At the end of it all, for their own preservation, they would give up these regions to humanity, so when they saw Jadoth, and perhaps other Margonites (maybe Jadoth was a leader amongst them?) moving into their territory around the Crystal Sea, they decided they had had enough. They tried kindness and had their territory taken from them because of it.
I think it was also at this point that they had to compromise with the very beings that had caused the destruction of their empire, the Gods. When Abaddon struck down the Forgotten in the event mentioned in the Scriptures of Abaddon, this must have been a turning point. Sure, the Gods had shifted the land and weakened their empire, but never had they specifically backed humanity, the true thieves of their empire, in the way seen in the Scriptures of Abaddon in an act clearly targeted at them. Humanity cried for an end to the wars caused by the gift of magic, the Forgotten demanded retribution for the persecution of their race (which may have gone further after this event, in occurrences similar to the slaughter mentioned by Vissh Rakissh in the Lair of the Forgotten).
The Gods had to decide, and they appealed to both parties. They created the Bloodstones in the tale we’re all familiar with, for the sake of humanity, and struck down Abaddon for the sake of the Forgotten. This explains two peculiarities in the story, one of which regarding the harshness of Abaddon’s punishment for an act that appeared to be detrimental only to humanity, and the other in the willingness of the Forgotten to act as his, and the Margonites, jailers. Of course, humanity wouldn’t want to see it this way, they would arrive on Tyria and see these “serpents” as having had to appear from somewhere else with a preexisting culture, as after all, how could they have empires where humanity was still only fighting amongst themselves in tribes? Similarly, they would see the Gods shaping the world, and the benevolence of the Forgotten in shepherding other creatures and think that the latter were working for the Gods, for who would think they would be doing so and not fighting beings that were tearing apart their empire?
Where humanity cannot explain matters, due to ignorance, it will create explanations from what it sees occurring, so I see this as being one of those possible misconceptions of humanity.
On a complete turn from the above, this idea basically takes what we know of the Forgotten and leaves it untouched. They were brought by the Gods to shepherd the other races and so on and so forth. However, the part where this differs is that I think the Gods may have shifted the land about so that the Forgotten could establish their empire over Tyria and the other races, with the main purpose being to teach the other races of the Gods and to, essentially, indoctrinate them. This would certainly explain the Charr’s views of the Gods, the conflict with the Forgotten in the first place, and why they did at least have tales of Melandru’s creation of the world (seized scrolls from a destroyed or abandoned Forgotten war camp, possibly). Humanity would be their main race, though, despite their lack of presence on the Tyrian continent, which may be because they had been prepared by the Gods for some time now, and Tyria itself was being prepared specifically for humanity, for what reasons, it is unclear.
An old idea was that the Gods’ power was derived from the amount of worshipers, and this may be why they did it, but it could also be argued that it was for similar reasons to the Great Dwarf’s creation of the Dwarven race, to combat the Elder Dragons when they awakened. The why is a mystery, which none of the existing evidence even begins to hint at an answer or explanation to, as far as I know.
Whatever the case may be, if it was in fact to combat the Elder Dragons, I think this sets Abaddon up as a potentially benevolent figure, in comparison to other accounts. Realizing that humanity (and the other races) would be facing the Elder Dragons at some point; he tries to give them more magic than was intended by the other Gods. Although it is said humanity broke the balance the Forgotten had established, what if they simply let go of the reins at this time? In letting the situation fall apart into disaster, they make it appear as though Abaddon is the evil figure here, and Abaddon, being the God of Secrets, knew this and gave Jadoth this knowledge as well, to tell the Gods. After all, he would only seem more suspicious if he tried to defend himself, not to mention he would be lying, undermining the validity of his claims, but a simple mortal, a human, no less, why, they would believe one of them. Especially since humanity was their chosen race, but he did not expect the Forgotten’s persecution of Jadoth, and thus enraged, struck down their warships and granted Jadoth even more power.
What happened next is incredibly difficult to say, given the chaotic nature of that time, but I suspect the Forgotten cleverly used Abaddon’s idea against him, by taking King Doric to the Gods to plea for help. This would also help explain how in Dhuum’s many names Doric somehow managed to get to Arah to do so. Whatever the case, the course of events implies that Jadoth didn’t get to the Gods in time, and possibly could not, as the assault on the Gates of Heaven may be referring to the Margonites, led by Jadoth, trying to break into the city of Arah to tell the Gods of the Forgotten’s misdeeds.
Now, you may ask here, as I have not elaborated, why the Forgotten would just let go of the control on the situation and point out that this contradicts the suggestion by the formation of the human kingdoms and dynasties in Tyria and Elona, respectively, that they had already lost control, but note that the Forgotten did not leave the world of men until, strangely enough, 174 years after they would have lost control. I think this was a last ditch attempt by the Forgotten, since they could see that humanity was clearly going to become the dominant race around Tyria through the Gods’ support, much like their empire had been established, to pit the Gods against one another, and restore their falling empire in the process. What they may not have foreseen was the Gods’ solution to Doric’s pleas and the strength of Abaddon setting them up for failure. As in the first, this meant the preservation of humanity, which they may have hoped would destroy each other with the magic given by Abaddon, and in the second, well; I think the Scriptures of Abaddon and their slaughter more or less paint that picture quite well.
On the other hand, it’s possible that the Gods simply ordered the Forgotten to lose control or that it occurred just as has been suggested by the events in the Manuscripts. The difference being that they may have ordered the persecution of Jadoth and the Margonites after their actions at their temples, thus the Forgotten were simply following orders, or the Forgotten may have taken matters into their own hands, finding it disrespectful towards the Gods and what they were brought there to do, indoctrinate them to worship all the Gods equally, and as such hunted them down. In the latter case, it was tyranny on the part of the Forgotten, worship all the Gods equally by our teachings or be faced with death.
If that’s what was occurring, it would explain why they were hunting Jadoth down and why Abaddon overreacted, he knew the Forgotten were abusing their power and being tyrants, in essence leading up to the events already outlined above. (Using Jadoth to try and inform the Gods, doesn’t get there in time, Forgotten bring King Doric into the picture, Abaddon is made to look like the bad guy.) This reaction would also suggest that the Gods had not intended for death to be the punishment for not following the teachings of the Forgotten precisely, despite the orders from them for the Forgotten to teach and indoctrinate humanity (as well as any other races that would be accepting of it without brute force).
- Forgotten were native to Tyria, it’s a human misconception that the Gods brought them there, their later cooperation with them was part of a compromise.
- Forgotten were brought to Tyria by the Gods, established an empire with their assistance to indoctrinate any races that were willing to listen to believe in and worship the Gods.
- Abaddon gives the races of Tyria more magic than intended, Forgotten intentionally lose control of the situation to try and pit the Gods against each other and lead to the demise of humanity so they may assume independent control of their empire over Tyria.
- The Forgotten persecute the Margonites for their overzealous worship of Abaddon with the intent to punish through death. This was not what the Gods intended, and Abaddon, seeing this, strikes the Forgotten warships down, which incites the Forgotten to release control of the situation creating mass wars across Tyria bringing humanity to the brink of extinction and from there escorting King Doric to plea to the Gods before Abaddon can get Jadoth to the Gods to reveal the truth.
As an after note, perhaps I should just ignore how long this appears as I'm writing this in Microsoft Word..It had the unedited version of this at six pages. What do you all think?
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Thread: The Forgotten Conspiracy.
20-03-2010, 01:50 #1
The Forgotten Conspiracy.
20-03-2010, 02:59 #2
I have no over arching theory but I will say -
- I don't trust the forgotten because they are associated/serve Glint. What makes her a nice dragon and all the other dragons bad? What is up with that and should we believe her? Why is her sand grain more like a prison than a palace in my opinion?
- I don't trust the forgotten because they are associated with the Scepter of Orr and the Staff of the Mists. This leads me to think there is a conspiracy of a higher order and that neither of the staffs are lost and that we will see more of their disrupting power as presaged in the end credits of Eotn when Livia encounters one of them or possibly a third one. Honestly, forgotten dudes, control those staves!
- I don't think they serve the gods so much as provide lip service while following their own agenda. I think the gods may have trusted them at one time to do their bidding.
- They are surprisingly weak which sort of belies the whole godly servant thing - you'd think they'd be a bit tougher. They need our help to do all sorts of things, since they are so rare and cannot fight for themselves. I tend to think they are a mortal race with no more divine grace than the average human.
I think they find humans useful for things they can't do themselves but I believe they secretly don't like people. Humans are responsible for ruining things for them either via Abaddon or other means. I am betting they have a role in GW2 and it isn't going to be very nice (well towards humans).
23-03-2010, 10:33 #3
Gmr Leon: Interesting read. I don't have any thoughts of my own to that, though, so I'm only replying to what Kalidri said.
Would the world be better off if we never started the quest to complete the Flameseeker Prophecy?
If nothing else, I think the world is a lot better of now. So whatever Glints intention or alignment, I think what she did was good.
24-03-2010, 01:45 #4
I agree with you on the Flameseeker Prophecy being a present good thing, but I wonder about her ultimate purpose.
Dragons live a long time and I wonder if perhaps the prophecy is just one of many things she has 'seen' on the way to something she desires - we know the forgotten serve her and as her agents they can be a little odd. The forgotten have no reason to like humans - so I wonder why Glint would.
Also, take a look at Glint's lair - at the crystals and compare them to the crystal bombs in post searing Ascalon. I know it could be explained by simple set design and game mechanics, but lore-wise it makes me wonder about the type of magic involved and where that magic came from. Presumably the Titans as agents of Abaddon showed the Charr how to use the magic that creates the crystal bombs (Ascalon's downfall has a parallel to Abaddon's attack on the Crystal Sea here). I'm curious if Glint had or has something to do with the titans or Abaddon - perhaps she turned against them and was rewarded with dominion over the newly created Crystal Desert and Desolation for her servants the Forgotten.
That's as far as I will go on the theoretical/spin-me-a-story path. There are other things I have thought about, wondering if Glint is actually sealed away etc, but nothing I have evidence for, I'm just a suspicious person :) I rather enjoy Glint and hope to see more of her and her servants in GW2.
22-06-2011, 23:20 #5
Hmm even though i am more inclined to believe the Tyrant version depicting abbadon a
tragic victim of a larger Conspiracy (since this does not change what we know as facts about the forgotten) how does this factor in his actions throughout the GW Saga if indeed the Humans are the chosen race?. Also would Kormir not inherent this knowledge
and therefore inform the other 5 Gods?
I simply dont believe that the answer is that abbadon went mad and wanted retribution.
(I know his real motivations are unkown)