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  1. #1371
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorudo View Post
    again you're missing the point, DMC is a full action role playing game, no amount of game mechanism can be compared within an MMO.
    it's deadly obvious dante can take down that grey alien but then again, every character with similar movement can go brutal against every enemy in TOR and not be hit.
    you're comparing a snale with a panter, you can't say the panter can kill X and expect the snale to do the same.
    if you go this route then let me do the same thing with GW, i can easily kill shiro or urgton with dante without even one hit so they should be brutally buffed.
    it's not fair to say this, but it's exactly what you're saying.
    GW skills doesn't take that long to cast. Sure there are a few 5 second cast time spells. But those are rare. 80% of the skills takes like 1 second to cast that's it. For example if you spam Flare, you can still hit those fast moving bosses. Sure GW1 isn't as fast as DMC, but GW1 is still a pretty quick game for a RPG. That's why skills like Infuse Health are needed for monk, because players can die that fast.

    As for Grey Alien vs Dante, if that Grey Alien cannot even handle ONE Dante, how can it handle 100 human players? That's all I am saying. World event bosses should be superior to one-on-one bosses. I do agree that we cannot expect the same thing. But is it really too much to ask for that Grey Alien to be superior to Vergil?
    Last edited by CHIPS; 05-02-2012 at 02:23.

  2. #1372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringsgold View Post
    Yes, and in 10 years people might be able to buy a PC that can play the MMO that does that. Look at Age of Conan, 4 years after release and it still takes a mid/high-end pc to run smoothly.

    In an MMO you can't mess with people's camera viewpoint, you can't make a tiny instance where people fight the boss, and a normal pc must be able to render ~20 characters, the boss and the environment. You're just not gonna get singleplayer graphics in an MMO.



    what, my imaginary monster can beat up your imaginary monster?

    You have to think about game mechanics, MMO's usually don't have mechanics for players to jump on top of bosses. Movement also has to be slower because attacking and casting spells takes time in an MMO, having the boss move fast would mean it's out of range before players can even do anything. Also, people in an MMO generally don't have very low ping so making them jump over some deadly tail swipe isn't gonna work (unles you want a frustrating semi-luck based encounter).
    MMO games lag because there are too many units on the screen. Improving the effects on ONE boss won't effect performance much. Not to mention the players will have the option to turn off these effects anyways.

    As for speed, these bosses would be world event bosses involving 100+ players. Sure he/she might move so fast that you cannot always attack it. But someone somewhere else would be able to hit it. You have your turn/chance to attack, and so does someone else. It is a community effort. You will not be THE hero, and you shouldn't be.

    Anet would disagree with you second point. They allow dodging the GW2 for this very purpose. The player would be REQUIRED to manually dodge the attacks of these world bosses, or take massive damage. As for the lag, it sounds like GW2 is very well written so don't worry about that.
    Last edited by CHIPS; 05-02-2012 at 21:23.

  3. #1373
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorudo View Post
    beside the story it is basically DMC with a second life-like chatroom, you can team up but that's about all there is.
    in an RPG story is everything, the battle system is also more in character like you see in allot of games and really not so fast.
    i never considered DMC an RPG, more a beat-up game
    I admit that as an MMO Vindictus is limited, but since there was talk about the possibility of combining full action fighting with lag induced internet connections I thought to bring it up anyway as it seems to succeed in this area. For it being an RPG, it has a story (however you value the quality of said story is imo irrelevant), character and loot progression. Now admittingly I don't know the technical definition of an RPG (or wether there is one to start with) but those are generally the hallmarks of the genre.
    Last edited by Shrandar; 05-02-2012 at 09:36.

  4. #1374
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHIPS View Post

    As for Grey Alien vs Dante, if that Grey Alien cannot even handle ONE Dante, how can it handle 100 human players? That's all I am saying. World event bosses should be superior to one-on-one bosses. I do agree that we cannot expect the same thing. But is it really too much to ask for that Grey Alien to be superior to Vergil?

    I agree but the point is more wether the vids taken from youtube are fair towards the game as a whole. Sure that boss is clearly under par (even in non-action MMO's) but then again, uninspired fights can be found in nearly every game. The vid is also out of context, what did the boss do before the 'taping' started and what did he do after, cannot be sure about that. I am not overly enthousiastic about the the general progression in combat SWTOR brought, but these vids should be taken as entertainment not as a sample of the game imo.

  5. #1375
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHIPS View Post
    GW skills doesn't take that long to cast. Sure there are a few 5 second cast time spells. But those are rare. 80% of the skills takes like 1 second to cast that's it. For example if you spam Flare, you can still hit those fast moving bosses. Sure GW1 isn't as fast as DMC, but GW1 is still a pretty quick game for a RPG. That's why skills like Infuse Health are needed for monk, because players can die that fast.
    GW1 and SWToR have one complete different system, not every caster relies on energy.
    the bounty hunter for instance has heat, you can fend heat but i still is some kind of limit.
    i agree that "some" skills have a really long recharge time but it's the same thing within GW1, compare breath of fire with ravage and you have the exact same recharge time, ravage on the other hand does not have any charge time where breath of fire has a 2 seconds charge time.

    i don't know if you have played SWToR at all but if you do, you should know there is more then just senselessly spam skills in this game.
    you really need tactics, if you don't even try to use tactics you're toast.

    As for Grey Alien vs Dante, if that Grey Alien cannot even handle ONE Dante, how can it handle 100 human players? That's all I am saying. World event bosses should be superior to one-on-one bosses. I do agree that we cannot expect the same thing. But is it really too much to ask for that Grey Alien to be superior to Vergil?
    vergil can jump from one enemy to the other, kill entire groups within seconds and even use his released demon form to crush every enemy in one hit.
    if i would see an enemy with such power i would report that as being overkill, it's way to overpowered even if you take GW2 in the picture.
    i could understand if you said GW2-like bosses but DMC is a whole different level of action, you can't even begin to use that a an example without getting the full load against you.
    it's alive but cannot be living, it's dead but lives a mortal life.

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  6. #1376
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    While most of you here are top notch top players and love a great challenge. You have to understand that many of the players who play this game will a) not have great eye-hand skills(me) b) not be skillful enough c) not want to face bosses that wipe them and many of their friends out in mere seconds. I would dare to say that this will be the vast majority of the gamers. That is why when I go to the forums of games I play I constantly see things like they are dumbing the game down, making it too easy.

    This is why single player games have instituted difficulty levels, and why GW had a hard mode. Now if those are not challenging enough, then yes you do have some room to complain, however you have to remember that the majority of your customers for your game are not going to be hard core gamers with tons of skill and such. I know when I play a game and wipe out time after time, just because I can't complete a task due to my not so good eye hand coordination, I will get extremely frustrated and will in anger sometimes bad mouth a game. You hard core skilled gamers want games that are only geared towards you, problem is there isn't a big enough market for the game companies to cater to you. You will have to find other methods to keep you happy. Single player games like Skyrim have a modding community that can help you out. For MMO games, you just have to hope that the instanced settings will have a hard mode, and of course rely on competitive PvP to sate your desires. Sorry, but this is the world we live in. In order for a game company to be able to spend the money to develop a new game they have to make it marketable and enjoyable to the masses.
    Last edited by Khanisaurus; 05-02-2012 at 14:23.

  7. #1377
    edit nah nevermind don't care
    Last edited by Zayren; 05-02-2012 at 20:35.

  8. #1378
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Some of the most epic fights I had in games were against bosses that don't move. If they can hit you from a distance, they really don't need to move.
    What were those epic fights? I can remember only one, the ending of Doom 2. And that was because the boss, while static, was also completely inactive - he was actually just a hole that you shot rockets into. The epicness came from the gazillions of very mobile non-boss enemies that tried to kill you or just push you off the elevator.



    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    This. Epic is in the difficulty being high yet not frustrating. That can be done with or without boss movement.



    Not if his attack range exceeds yours, and the so-called pattern includes random elements. If for example, his breath attack has much higher range than your arrows (or cannons) and it hits at random locations, you are obliged to pay attention to when he does that attack and to actively avoid it.



    Wrong. It is to be unpredictable.



    Funny you didn't mention that he moved. Yes, the reason he was the ultimate boss was because he had a lot of skills that really messed you up. Moving was not a particularly important aspect of why that fight was epic when you think about it.

    The shatterer for example can encase people in ice. If you don't respond by freeing them, you're probably toast. Bosses have abilities like this which, if implemented well, can make the fight quite epic. With the right difficulty level, it'll be epic.
    Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant when I said "stand outside the pattern and shoot into it". You can do this in chess if your opponent follows a pattern. The thing is, when the pattern involves movement, it becomes very obvious. Let's say the boss is always shooting at zone A and then zone B, which might overlap. Since you know when he's shooting at zone A, all you need to do is to not stand in zone A at that moment. Of course, this is a very standard way of constructing bosses (it comes automatically with such things as attacks with a certain range, etc). The problem, then, is that without movements, these zones become static, and thus more easily noticed.
    Now, I'm not saying that the Shatterer will always attack exactly in a certain way at a certain moment, etc., but there will be a form of predictability in his attacks no doubt, and this will be exacerbated by his lack of movement.

    You are, of course, erroneous when you say that the boss need to be unpredictable to break players' patterns. The Glint battle is a perfect example. In fact, in some cases, too much unpredictability lowers the skill cap because, well, if everything is random there's not enough to learn.

    Glint is a she. And moving was a very important part! The skills messed you up, yes, but they would not have mattered if all you needed to do was to spread out and heal the guy that was currently taking damage. In fact, you could set up a multiline, GvG-style structure that even PvE players could handle since it wasn't moving around, where you'd have the healers permanently outside of damage range.

  9. #1379
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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    You are, of course, erroneous (...)
    You can declare yourself winner if you want, but you are minority in that belief.

    My most memorable epic boss fights were in the Freespace series where you were caught between capital ships that were shooting huge laser beams at each other, and you had to dogfight in the middle of that and try to land bombs at the enemy capital ships. Also, the endgame boss of Freespace 1 was absolutely awesome, it was essentially motionless gameplay-wise but it was a fun fight.

    The randomness breaks the pattern, and the pattern makes it fun for you to learn how to fight. A good boss has a good mix of random and pattern. The best way to mix them is to have each attack being a pattern in and of itself, so once an attack starts, you know how to respond to it... but you never know what the next attack will be.

    I also remember some epic fights in RPGs against hydras and dragons where the beast itself was immobile and you were fighting the head. What was important wasn't how you aimed (in those games, there was auto-aiming anyway) but rather how well you dodged attacks. Dodging is a big part of epic.

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    The skills messed you up, yes, but they would not have mattered if all you needed to do was to spread out and heal the guy that was currently taking damage.
    I could do that, and often did in fact. I often set up my flags, and concentrated on proper skill usage. Come to think of it, I didn't have to much myself, and she didn't move at all once she got to her position.
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  10. #1380
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    You can declare yourself winner if you want, but you are minority in that belief.

    My most memorable epic boss fights were in the Freespace series where you were caught between capital ships that were shooting huge laser beams at each other, and you had to dogfight in the middle of that and try to land bombs at the enemy capital ships. Also, the endgame boss of Freespace 1 was absolutely awesome, it was essentially motionless gameplay-wise but it was a fun fight.

    The randomness breaks the pattern, and the pattern makes it fun for you to learn how to fight. A good boss has a good mix of random and pattern. The best way to mix them is to have each attack being a pattern in and of itself, so once an attack starts, you know how to respond to it... but you never know what the next attack will be.

    I also remember some epic fights in RPGs against hydras and dragons where the beast itself was immobile and you were fighting the head. What was important wasn't how you aimed (in those games, there was auto-aiming anyway) but rather how well you dodged attacks. Dodging is a big part of epic.
    I'm in the minority? Gee, I remember being in the minority a thousand times when it came to things like this I remember turning out to be right almost as many times.

    I don't really know how you can compare Freespace with this. But let's run with it. In that capital ship fight, what would happen if you just flew in behind "your" cap ship (the one on your side, which hopefully would not shoot at you) and stayed there for... well, until something happened? Was there a timer or something?

    And yes, but the lack of movement still sets a pattern. When he's motionless, you can hide behind a rock and you know that none of his attacks will hit there. Maybe you can't reach him from there, but you can at least rest up or whatever. Or maybe he can reach there, but since he's (for some inane reason) so big, he has to telegraph that very clearly. Meaning that the pattern starts way too soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    I could do that, and often did in fact. I often set up my flags, and concentrated on proper skill usage. Come to think of it, I didn't have to much myself, and she didn't move at all once she got to her position.
    So you mean that without movement it became much easier. In fact so much easier that you set up your hero flags in a way so that her AI won't tell her to move?
    And how did that make the battle feel? Did it feel less epic than when she runs around like a pissed off dragon on steroids?
    Imagine if you didn't even need to set up your flags.

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