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  1. #1381
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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    I remember turning out to be right almost as many times.
    Yes. Memory can fail too. But to give you credit where it is due, you have been right about a number of things. But there are also some things where you get it into your head that you are right, and there is nothing anyone can say to change your mind.

    I think this is one of those cases, but of course, you will disagree. And that's fine, it's still a good discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    I don't really know how you can compare Freespace with this.
    Huge things shooting major blasts at each other, and you're stuck in the middle. Whether it's two dragons or two spaceships is just reskinning, much like WoW vs SWTOR.

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    what would happen if you just flew in behind "your" cap ship
    You would lose because your damage and support is needed for your side to win, without it the enemy forces would overpower your capital ship.

    In Freespace, it means you lose the mission, and have to try again. In GW2, that means all the work to push back the forces have been in vain, you get a new horde re-invading your area.

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    So you mean that without movement it became much easier.
    Sure, put words into my mouth to win your argument.

    The fight remained epic, but not because of movement. Sure, a fight can be epic because of movement, I don't disagree with that. I do love that GW2 has dodge etc. But a fight can be epic without movement, particularly boss movement.

    Also, you're forgetting that boss fights often come with minions that the boss summons that have movement. So positioning and movement is still important for you.
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  2. #1382
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    they're at it again, no other comment is fitting then "let's get ready to rumble"
    it's alive but cannot be living, it's dead but lives a mortal life.

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  3. #1383
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    I don't see how a lack of a story impacts boss fight mechanics. If Vindictus had a story "worthy" of calling it an RPG, would the combat disqualify it in your opinion?

    The notion that RPGs have to have slow battle systems is insane. Oh, wait, look who I'm talking to.

  4. #1384
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    I think slow mechanics are desirable in two cases usually associated with rpg's.

    (1) MMOs, so that gameplay can still be decent even with relatively lower bandwidth.
    (2) team-based combat, so you can still micro-manage all of your units properly.

    The former is just lack of technology though, it's not a gameplay reason. The latter doesn't apply to the vast majority of MMORPGs, because you usually only control yourself (and one summon maybe).
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  5. #1385
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Yes. Memory can fail too. But to give you credit where it is due, you have been right about a number of things. But there are also some things where you get it into your head that you are right, and there is nothing anyone can say to change your mind.

    I think this is one of those cases, but of course, you will disagree. And that's fine, it's still a good discussion.
    So you're implying I was wrong? Was I wrong when I said that 6v6 HA would be unpopular? Was I wrong when I said that dervishes would be hard to balance right? Was I wrong when I said that it would be easier to set up a good caster hero team than a good melee hero team? Was I wrong when I said that UB was should be nerfed? Was I wrong when I said that EotN dungeons would probably not be as interesting as Sorrow's Furnace, and thus would be ran a lot?
    You forget that people pay me to see these kind of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Huge things shooting major blasts at each other, and you're stuck in the middle. Whether it's two dragons or two spaceships is just reskinning, much like WoW vs SWTOR.



    You would lose because your damage and support is needed for your side to win, without it the enemy forces would overpower your capital ship.

    In Freespace, it means you lose the mission, and have to try again. In GW2, that means all the work to push back the forces have been in vain, you get a new horde re-invading your area.



    Sure, put words into my mouth to win your argument.

    The fight remained epic, but not because of movement. Sure, a fight can be epic because of movement, I don't disagree with that. I do love that GW2 has dodge etc. But a fight can be epic without movement, particularly boss movement.

    Also, you're forgetting that boss fights often come with minions that the boss summons that have movement. So positioning and movement is still important for you.
    But you won't have two dragons shooting at each other. You'll have one dragon. And if you're lucky, he'll care about the players when he decides to shoot.

    Now about Freespace. You say that if you hide away your ship, your (static) cap ship would be damaged and eventually destroyed, and you'll lose the battle. Basically, you're running on a timer, and when the time runs out, your cap ship loses. What you need to do is to beat the enemy cap ship first (correct me if I'm wrong). Of course, this is effecting the play imperative because you as a player needs to put in a performance to keep this from happening. This is all good.
    Is there a similar timer in the Shatterer battle? Will it be possible to draw him into a set piece battle where we can calmly kill him? Basically, can we move while he can't, and can we do so infinitely? It sure looks like it in the battle. Now I'm not saying that we can't lose. I'm saying there's more to epicness than cool graphics.

    Also, it's a space battle. In space, I'm sure you know, there is no sense of absolute motion. Your brain, if you were sitting in a real spaceship of that size, would automatically "hook" onto the larger ship, taking that as the terra firma, despite the fact that it might be moving at a speed of thousands of miles per hour, at least as long as it moved at a constant speed in a straight line. Your brain is simply hardwired to do so. Now, would a capital ship move in a straight line at a constant speed? With the amount of weapons on it, it would probably not have any reason to do anything else, especially since the energy investment needed to accelerate and/or turn would probably exceed the small advantage it might gain. Thus it makes sense to model a space battle of this type as if the cap ship was static (or actually, it could be moving even in the battle and you wouldn't know because all you see is relative motion, not absolute).
    Would a dragon, that probably would have a larger chance of beating the players if he would move around instead of standing still, keep still, or would he move around? Well, the dragon is probably interested in beating the players and is not bound by the constraints, nor the tactical considerations, of the cap ship. The only reason such a thing would keep still is so that we could beat it. And players will of course realize that, and that would rob us of immersion, making it feel less epic.

    Imagine yourself involved in a battle against creatures the size of newly hatched chickens. They are miniscule, but do have some sort of weapon, and would kill you if you let them do their thing long enough. Would you
    A) stand around until they can maneuver to get a good hit at you, occasionally stomping one of them to pulp when he got in your direct way,
    or
    B) stomp on all of them in quick succession while trying to avoid their attacks?

    As you notice, I'm not putting words into your mouth. I'm (in possible vain) attempting to have a respectful discussion. You can answer the question, did the fight become easier when Glint wasn't moving around, or not? Or you can keep dodging. Maybe you're trying to make me feel like an epic boss.

  6. #1386
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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    So you're implying I was wrong?
    In some cases, yes. In other cases, no.

    Dervishes were difficult to balance, not impossible as you were claiming. Nobody in their right mind argued that UB shouldn't be nerfed. Also, the homosexual redefinition.

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    You forget that people pay me to see these kind of things.
    Huh? Well, being paid for it doesn't mean that you're always right, does it? :)

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    But you won't have two dragons shooting at each other. You'll have one dragon. And if you're lucky, he'll care about the players when he decides to shoot.
    Sure. Then again, there were epic battles where there were only the enemy capital ship. The endgame of Freespace 1 for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    Will it be possible to draw him into a set piece battle where we can calmly kill him? Basically, can we move while he can't, and can we do so infinitely? It sure looks like it in the battle.
    Then you are misinformed. You do have a timer in GW2 battles against most of those encounters, either a real timer (even if not shown) or at least objectives that get failed. And if you fail enough over time (e.g. by playing it too safe) then you fail the dynamic event, and the story chains with the bad consequences (e.g. your town gets invaded, you lose control of the fortress, the dragon summons an army).

    So it's all good?

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    Would a dragon, that probably would have a larger chance of beating the players if he would move around instead of standing still, keep still, or would he move around?
    This is more of a lore question. Why is he standing still? Maybe so he can cast skills like summoning his army, or hit with his paws, or breathe fire. His goal isn't to stomp you, it's to summon his army. If you're out of his range, you're not disrupting his army summoning, hence he is not motivated to give chase.

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    You can answer the question, did the fight become easier when Glint wasn't moving around, or not? Or you can keep dodging.
    Not really. The fight was hard because of the skills Glint was using. It didn't really matter who was getting attacked, so long as they were placed to avoid AoE damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    Maybe you're trying to make me feel like an epic boss.
    Hahah! My turn at a funny counter.

    This fight is epic, even though you are not moving from your original position ;)
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  7. #1387
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    In some cases, yes. In other cases, no.

    Dervishes were difficult to balance, not impossible as you were claiming. Nobody in their right mind argued that UB shouldn't be nerfed. Also, the homosexual redefinition.



    Huh? Well, being paid for it doesn't mean that you're always right, does it? :)
    I didn't say that dervishes would be impossible to balance. I said that they would be hard to balance. I also said that scythes would prevent them from creating self-balancing skills. So far I'm right, I could be made wrong if they are exceptionally ingenious.

    Also, what about the correct definition of homosexual? You're *** if you have sex with people of the same sex as yourself. I understand why people don't like this definition, but that doesn't mean that it's not correct.



    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Sure. Then again, there were epic battles where there were only the enemy capital ship. The endgame of Freespace 1 for example.



    Then you are misinformed. You do have a timer in GW2 battles against most of those encounters, either a real timer (even if not shown) or at least objectives that get failed. And if you fail enough over time (e.g. by playing it too safe) then you fail the dynamic event, and the story chains with the bad consequences (e.g. your town gets invaded, you lose control of the fortress, the dragon summons an army).

    So it's all good?



    This is more of a lore question. Why is he standing still? Maybe so he can cast skills like summoning his army, or hit with his paws, or breathe fire. His goal isn't to stomp you, it's to summon his army. If you're out of his range, you're not disrupting his army summoning, hence he is not motivated to give chase.



    Not really. The fight was hard because of the skills Glint was using. It didn't really matter who was getting attacked, so long as they were placed to avoid AoE damage.



    Hahah! My turn at a funny counter.

    This fight is epic, even though you are not moving from your original position ;)
    I can't really make sense of your individual lines, I'll reply to what I can make sense of.
    Yes there's only one ship in the end of Freespace, but that doesn't change the argument. You're a fast-flying ship, the boss is not; he would expend more energy on shifting his position than the worth of the advantage he would gain by doing so. Thus he won't move, and will just fire his guns. Kinda like the Death Star in the end of the first (fourth? eh) Star Wars movie, huh. Though actually the cap ship could have been moving, just as the Death Star actually was - though it didn't look like it on the movie because our brains are not made to see that.

    Hmm, so the Shatterer is summoning his army. Why would he be doing that when we are obviously stopping him? Why would he not crush us, as he would be capable of if he would be able to move?

    About Glint, no, not really. If you're capable of standing in a way that makes the AI not move around, you're also capable of overcoming the two most pattern breaking skills: Crystal Hibernation (overcome by interrupt) and Jagged Crystal Skin (overcome by using elemental damage or a stance remover). Overcoming these means that the only danger is in Glint's direct attacks, which are certainly more dangerous if she is able to move around, but are rather tame if they are confined to only hit a few characters.

    I don't think I need to move from my original position since you're just poking at details instead of carrying a line of argumentation.
    Last edited by raspberry jam; 06-02-2012 at 18:32.

  8. #1388
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    Aaaanyway, let's not get OT here. We've had those discussions before elsewhere, repeating them here will do neither of us any good. I only said that because you said that you were right every time before, which some might think is true if unchallenged.

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    Hmm, so the Shatterer is summoning his army. Why would he be doing that when we are obviously stopping him?
    I honestly don't know. Ask him. Sorry, but this is a lore question... you either believe that he is acting properly to best serve his motivation (whatever that may be) or he is not. If you think he's acting stupid, that speaks of flaws in lore, not in gameplay mechanics. It's important to immersion, sure. But it's a different story.

    Might I remind you that you're perfectly happy to pick a lore reason why the Freespace capital ships don't move (relative to us). And yet don't disagree that the fights there can be epic (and they were). The difference between there and here is lore and skin, the actual gameplay mechanics are quite similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    About Glint (...) Overcoming these means that the only danger is in Glint's direct attacks, which are certainly more dangerous if she is able to move around, but are rather tame if they are confined to only hit a few characters.
    That's just it though. If you are able to overcome everything else Glint has to offer, then movement becomes important because that's the only thing left. I'm sorry, that's a piss poor argument. It's equivalent to ignoring everything that doesn't support your argument as irrelevant, and only using that which supports your argument.

    Cherry-picking at its best.

    -----

    I never said that boss movement couldn't be used to make a fight epic. It certainly can, and there are plenty of very good examples of that. Shadow of the Colossus is one of them.

    I only said that boss movement isn't required to make a fight epic, and I think I have given plenty of examples of that.
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  9. #1389
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    let me give you a tiny mini tip: never ever compare the MMO world with the singleplayer/multiplayer world, it never makes a good argument.
    it's alive but cannot be living, it's dead but lives a mortal life.

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  10. #1390
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    Dear Sorudo,

    It's clear that ANet has looked at a lot of single-player games and non-MMO games and "borrowed" elements from these games into GW2. Afaik, features such as personal storyline, downed mode, conquest, dodging, aiming, map travel, absence of trinity, low grind, no sub... those are all features that are not common in MMOs yet are in other game styles.

    We should compare MMOs to the singleplayer/multiplayer world, if only to show the glaring flaws that could so easily be fixed if only we had something to compare to. If our only reference is WoW and its clone army, then we set ourselves to repeating the mistakes of our history.

    Thank you for listening.
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