GW2 and SW:TOR at the forefront of MMORPG?

[Zayren]

As far as the trinity goes, it's pretty much always going to exist to some extent. In Guild Wars, yeah you didn't need a tank for most content because of how effective protection spells and monks in general were. However, you were pretty much required to use them if you had any hopes of beating the more difficult, elite areas without a huge hassle. Obviously, if one is skilled enough, you could, in theory, do all of the hardest areas in the game without a tank, but it's significantly more difficult.

I figure the same will hold true for GW2. It's not outlandish to think that the more difficult content will have a Warrior, making use of his unusually high VIM stat, soaking up the majority of the hits, while you have some water eles and guardians supporting him and keeping the group alive, while some people in the backlines provide DPS. However, one of the fundamental differences between this set-up and ones found in other MMO's will be that if the tank goes down, in THEORY, someone should be able to change the way they are playing to control the mobs themselves, without getting owned in the face. How this plays out, though, we'll have to wait and see.

[djacob]

The thing about the trinity is... it's difficult to understand why it's bad if you don't have good alternatives. Most MMORPGs (afaik, granted, I didn't play many) are variants going from trinity badly implemented to trinity well implemented. And hybrids are usually either OP (and used for one role at a time despite their flexibility), UP (and not used at all), or balanced (and still used at one role at a time but having an easier finding a spot in the team due to flexibility).

Trinity worked in GW1, but it wasn't the best team setup and it wasn't even the best general-purpose team setup.

The difference with GW2 isn't that every profession is a hybrid, but that the optimal way to play is hybrid. People who stick to trinity gameplay will either fail, or at least progress at a slower pace and be called noobs.

Mind you, the real problem with trinity isn't clearly-defined roles. That can even be good if done well.

The real problem is that in those games, the gameplay is usually fairly static except for rare boss encounters. Position is unidimensional (frontline, midline, backline). Dodging is irrelevant. And if a key member dies (e.g. the tank), the trinity fails and it's hard to recover. But if say a nuker dies, life goes on.

What ANet said in their latest interview.

QFT.

Also, I think the OP of that thread cringes more at the lack of movement he saw in the vids than the trinity system, it's just that the trinity system was causing the lack of movement. Which is why I think he needs to get gw2 as it is doing exactly the opposite. Movement and battle awareness is what is important instead of using skills which manage aggro and health bars to win the fight.

[Alaris]

That's just it... I don't think even the *tank* would be effective as a tank, especially in the more difficult areas. I think the damage he'd receive would be vastly higher than the damage he'd be able to absorb. I think the new "tank" would be the frontliner running around so that foes waste their attacks swinging in the air and shooting and missing.

I do love the concept of being able to change role (to some extent) during combat. Whether or not the trinity exists, being able to swap roles will make it a lot easier to adapt to the situation, making the gameplay a lot more fluid. I always liked hybrids for that reason... in fact, I sometimes find that a hybrid in RA is a good asset, switching to healing when you're getting over-dps'ed, and to damage when against multiple healers... sometimes you need to change role even during a single match.

This will be my favorite part of GW2, being able to switch role during combat. <3 WoW druids for that reason.

[Thalanor Thornhale]

QFT.

Also, I think the OP of that thread cringes more at the lack of movement he saw in the vids than the trinity system, it's just that the trinity system was causing the lack of movement. Which is why I think he needs to get gw2 as it is doing exactly the opposite. Movement and battle awareness is what is important instead of using skills which manage aggro and health bars to win the fight.

I suggest you try it gently. If you do dress warmly

Last time, I was saying "Hey GW2 and SW:TOR both look really good in their own ways." I was labeled as a SW:TOR hater (+ GW2 sucks) for the most part (- some gems took exception and made the thread worth reading - and a 1000+ post thread with part 2 flamed up ). See beginning of this thread for the link.

[Alaris]

Added comment: it always seemed odd that somebody's role would be to take a beating for the team.

[djacob]

I suggest you try it gently. If you do dress warmly

Last time, I was saying "Hey GW2 and SW:TOR both look really good in their own ways." I was labeled as a SW:TOR hater (+ GW2 sucks) for the most part (- some gems took exception and made the thread worth reading - and a 1000+ post thread with part 2 flamed up ). See beginning of this thread for the link.

Ha, yeah I enjoyed reading that thread. If I were to comment that this guy needs to look into gw2, it would probably be a whisper. However, I'm not really sure I'm going to even try SW:TOR, and the more I hear the less I like it (and the only person I know in rl that is interested in it sounds less so every day himself).

I don't really like making accounts for games I don't play just to whisper someone so I probably won't, it was more just an observation that everything he seems to dislike about the MMO is exactly what gw2 seems to be trying to change about the MMO.

Added comment: it always seemed odd that somebody's role would be to take a beating for the team.

Ha, yeah, it does seem odd and I've done it in a few games. Warhammer online and now d&d, it was really boring in warhammer while doing dungeons, I had to remind myself that my skill that blocked 3 or 4 attacks also did a lot of damage so I was doing some pretty good dps while still defending myself (also, I believe backers of the trinity system would say that the tanks role is to get enemies to attack them while NOT taking a beating, but yeah it's to take all the hits from the enemy since it doesn't hurt quite as much).

I'm thinking it'll be better in d&d since I'll also have a few ways to heal the team, with a lot of options for controlling the enemy (conditions+movement control), as well as being able to do similar damage as the dps while still directing most of the attacks to myself. Still, I cannot wait for gw2 as I'm liking the no-trinity more the longer they talk about it and why they went with it. Now, if they said no-trinity and you just stand there using skills 1-10 to keep the enemy from hurting you or running away while in turn killing them... blah. I do wonder what the ai will be like. Hope they know to run from aoes, cripple those running out of aoes and the like. If not, I might need to spend a decent amount of time in world pvp.

[Zayren]

I just read the first post of that thread in the OP, and I found this hilarious.

Guild Wars 2 will be free to play as Guild Wars 1 was (lack of funding means lack content, lack of fixes, and lack of updates).

The dude is so wrong. Aside from hot fixing major bugs, it takes Blizzard FOREVER to implement patches. There's a glitch with all of the Stone Drake mounts since they've been in the game (which was the release of Cataclysm) and Blizzard still hasn't fixed it. Seeing Anet's track record, that would have been fixed within at least a day of going live. Sure, Blizzard does have more major content patches, but I'd personally prefer the bugs get fixed immediately, not months after.

[Giggles]

I don't know how different GW2 will really be with how the trinity idea really works but, at least they're trying to do something different then what everyone has been doing for so long. Rather then playing the safe, boring way, ANet is at least trying to differentiate themselves from the rest. Reading those kids talk about how the trinity is the only way to go is an example of what's wrong with games. No one is or is willing to except something different.

[Flamefang of Arnor]

I don't know how different GW2 will really be with how the trinity idea really works but, at least they're trying to do something different then what everyone has been doing for so long. Rather then playing the safe, boring way, ANet is at least trying to differentiate themselves from the rest. Reading those kids talk about how the trinity is the only way to go is an example of what's wrong with games. No one is or is willing to except something different.

I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.
- Terry Pratchett

[Giggles]

I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.
- Terry Pratchett

That is so true about so many things. I should put on an old man hat and say it's all TVs fault. But seriously, a lot of kids these days have no imagination. Why? I think it's the fault of structured play, or lack of play and toys that do one thing. I bet most kids these days in the western world don't just go outside all afternoon and just make up stuff anymore. TV is totally passive. You don't create anything. There's almost nothing creative about playing most games. Most toys are force-fed what they do for you. A stick could be a million things. A toy car is most likely going to stay a toy car. Either that or you're pushed into "getting further in life" classes / tutoring.

Most art/music courses are ditched in favour of more "useful" things like math and science. There's no room for running around and creating things in your head which I think is a terribly import part of intelligence. In fact I'd even go as far to say it's the creative people that are smart. Why? They're not necessarily full of facts but, they can apply knowledge in new ways. I can't think of anyone that hasn't been heralded as a genius that wasn't like that.

I think that thread is an exemplary showcase about how uncreative gamers are right now. It's always been that way, it can't or shouldn't be like anything else. That's probably why I won't even try a demo of it.