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  1. #51
    GWOnline.Net Member Aoi Enishi's Avatar
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    There's a fundamental knowledge of warrior skills that seems lacking in this forum. Lets take Soldiers defense - 75% blocking and 33% IAS - or dwarven Battle stance. Both offer the IAS we love so dearly with added defense. (DBS being the superior of the two If wielding a hammer)
    Dwarven Battle Stance cuts non armor ignoring dmg in half, need maxed Dwarven stability or kd to charge and provides interrupts which are the weaker than kd's.

    75% block cuts all physical dmg down to 25% while also preventing physical interrupts, disenchants knockdowns and conditions applied by physical attacks. This is by far superior to +40 armor, especially in HM where a lot of the damage dealt by physical attackers is armor ignoring bonus damage from supercharged attack skills.

    Soldiers Defence provides the same benefits as lightning reflexes but needs the same amount of skills (2, the stance and the shout) while spending your elite on it. In comparison it is way inferior to permanent Lightning reflexes charged with On your Knees.

    And then there's the part where you initially charge adren faster than any other class, ECharge+FGJ and your earth shaker is ready, after which you attack every 0.66 seconds for 3 seconds dealing ~100 dmg per hit and charging the next earth shaker before enemies get up.
    Edit: Just checked and yes with stonefist and 33% ias you can get 4 hits of renewing smash in whereas you can only get 3 with raner and 2 sec kd's.

    All in all the actual bonus from warrior is stonefist, slightly more damage and armor, and vanity.
    Last edited by Aoi Enishi; 02-06-2011 at 08:59.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by upier View Post
    Monks exist.
    So do necros with Enfeebling Blood.
    Even in HM it trims down the damage enough that getting hit by several attack skills is bearable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aoi Enishi View Post
    75% block cuts all physical dmg down to 25% while also preventing physical interrupts, disenchants knockdowns and conditions applied by physical attacks. This is by far superior to +40 armor, especially in HM where a lot of the damage dealt by physical attackers is armor ignoring bonus damage from supercharged attack skills.
    Often forgotten, but every time you are hit (as well as landing hits) you gain adrenaline. It takes a few hits, but in prolonged battle you'll gain more than a few strikes of Adrenaline. So taking a blocking skill actually lowers your DPS in a way most don't realize. Part of the reason I like Enfeebling Blood, with Shielding Hands/Shield of Absorption being on my heroes' bars.

  3. #53
    GWOnline.Net Member Aoi Enishi's Avatar
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    Often forgotten, but every time you are hit (as well as landing hits) you gain adrenaline.
    This is untrue. You gain adrenaline for taking damage not for taking hits. Every time you take damage you gain 1 point of adrenaline for each % of your maximum health you are loosing. As 1 strike of adrenaline is equivalent to 25 points, using skills such as enfeebling blood, protective spirit shielding hands, shield of absrbtion etc. actually lowers the amount of adrenaline you gain, and it does so more than blocking does.

    An example, with ps and shielding hands (12 protection) a 600 hp character will take 45 dmg pr hit which is 7.5 points of adrenaline, therefore you will need to take in 10 hits to gain the equivalent of landing 3 hits. Shield of absorbtion will often reduce damage to 0 after a short while, during which the adrenaline gained from being attacked is reduced to nothing. Weakness will therefore not just cut down the damage that foes deal with attacks by 66% but it will also lower the amount of adrenaline you gain from being attack by 66%.

    A foe who would normally hit for 90 dmg, will when weakened hit for 30 dmg, to you who has 600 max hp, this is equivalent to taking 5% dmg and therefore you gain 5 points of adrenaline pr. hit you take. If the same foe is not weakened, but you have 75% block, the 90 dmg will be 15% of your maximum health and give you 15 points every 4th hit for 3.75 points of adrenaline pr. hit. Block does lower your adrenaline gain compared to weakness, but it is marginal, especially since you'll usually use more than just weakness to migitate damage.

    Therefore by using damage migitators of any kind you are effectively cutting the adrenaline gained from being attacked, in which case you might as well cut the adrenaline gain from being attacked down by preventing knockdowns interrupts and conditions which would otherwise hinder your damage dealing abilities (blind weakness etc.).
    Last edited by Aoi Enishi; 02-06-2011 at 15:14.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by upier View Post
    Monks exist.

    PvE is a damage-fest, where one brings as much damage as one can, while having sufficient support.
    This mindset is the sole reason why there are so many terrible warriors out there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aoi Enishi View Post
    Dwarven Battle Stance cuts non armor ignoring dmg in half, need maxed Dwarven stability or kd to charge and provides interrupts which are the weaker than kd's.

    75% block cuts all physical dmg down to 25% while also preventing physical interrupts, disenchants knockdowns and conditions applied by physical attacks. This is by far superior to +40 armor, especially in HM where a lot of the damage dealt by physical attackers is armor ignoring bonus damage from supercharged attack skills.

    Soldiers Defence provides the same benefits as lightning reflexes but needs the same amount of skills (2, the stance and the shout) while spending your elite on it. In comparison it is way inferior to permanent Lightning reflexes charged with On your Knees.
    How long do you intend for your fights to be, enishi? i find having rank 14-15 in strength more than enough to Have on DBS while taking out the actual threats in a mob. And yes, interrupts are weaker than KDs when you only have one or two, But its a different case when you're interrupting the target with each attack skill you use.
    Many attacks used in pve are unblockable, lets not forget that. (and 75% blocking does not reduce any damage dealt to you.)
    You also didn't address the point i made pertaining to stance removal.

    I assume you think shouts are a useless burden that should be viewed as a mere requirement for Soldier's stance to be effective. This combination allows for additional defense, more damage, faster movement etc. Which expertise skills are there that compliment lightning reflexes If you're wielding a hammer? Absolutely none. Warriors, on the other hand have 6 non-elite shouts in tactics alone. The additional requirement of needing a shout for soldier's stance isn't a hindrance, but an opportunity for the player to choose which buff they want to give to the skill.
    Last edited by Ares Hydrogeddon; 03-06-2011 at 04:54.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Ares Hydrogeddon View Post
    This mindset is the sole reason why there are so many terrible warriors out there.
    You win the game by killing the foe.
    Monks, ER Protters, STers, Restorers do not kill. So, they better find a way to justify their presence or they should just pack their bags and leave.
    Now, given the limitations of the AI and the strength of the best available options, playing with supporters who justify their presence means that there is absolutely no reason why the killing machine shouldn't focus on killing.

    Or, the short version:
    PS, SoA, Frenzy.
    WIN!

  6. #56
    GWOnline.Net Member Aoi Enishi's Avatar
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    Many attacks used in pve are unblockable, lets not forget that.
    Please provide sufficient examples to substanciate this claim.

    I assume you think shouts are a useless burden that should be viewed as a mere requirement for Soldier's stance to be effective. This combination allows for additional defense, more damage, faster movement etc. Which expertise skills are there that compliment lightning reflexes If you're wielding a hammer? Absolutely none. Warriors, on the other hand have 6 non-elite shouts in tactics alone. The additional requirement of needing a shout for soldier's stance isn't a hindrance, but an opportunity for the player to choose which buff they want to give to the skill.
    I did not say anything remotely like that, i simply pointed out that you are sacrificing your elite for somethign a non elite can do the exact same for, without gaining any bar compression to compensate for this.

    As for the so-called 6 non elite shouts in tactics the only half way feaseable shouts to be used with soldiers stance is Fear Me! and To The Limit, of which Fear Me! requires you to have allready built up adrenaline befrehand to gain any benefit from your elite. Fact is youre better off getting as much as you can from FGJ before it runs out leaving you with 25 seconds of uselessness. Then again if you are using FGJ you might aswell go Dragon slash spammer and output some big damage while pumping out mass party defence with SY!.

    As per stance removal, in the rare cases where it exists, using On Your Knees to charge Lightning Reflexes actually provide more resistance than using Soldiers Stance since the charge of your kd is way faster than the recharge of Soldiers stance, allowing you to get up your block much faster, if not instantly should it be stripped.

    As for dwarven battle stance, interrupting a single foe is pretty worthless and in PvE you ought to be pumping whirlwind and crude swings for aoe dmg, and these aoe interrupts are not more frequent than the amount of AOE kd's that you can pump out with earth shaker while still maintaining 75% block.

    This is ofc only the case in areas with disenchant, since in areas without disenchant moebius death blossomers outshine both warriors and rangers in melee.
    Last edited by Aoi Enishi; 03-06-2011 at 17:54.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by upier View Post
    You win the game by killing the foe.
    Monks, ER Protters, STers, Restorers do not kill. So, they better find a way to justify their presence or they should just pack their bags and leave.
    Now, given the limitations of the AI and the strength of the best available options, playing with supporters who justify their presence means that there is absolutely no reason why the killing machine shouldn't focus on killing.

    Or, the short version:
    PS, SoA, Frenzy.
    WIN!
    Again, this mindset is the sole reason why there are so many horrible warriors out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aoi Enishi View Post
    Please provide sufficient examples to substanciate this claim.
    I'm actually going to opt out of sitting here and listing the skills to you and the areas in which they are used, when you can just look them up yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aoi Enishi View Post
    I did not say anything remotely like that, i simply pointed out that you are sacrificing your elite for somethign a non elite can do the exact same for, without gaining any bar compression to compensate for this.
    I made an assumption based on the way you worded the statement, I apologize.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aoi Enishi View Post
    As for the so-called 6 non elite shouts in tactics the only half way feaseable shouts to be used with soldiers stance is Fear Me! and To The Limit, of which Fear Me! requires you to have allready built up adrenaline befrehand to gain any benefit from your elite. Fact is youre better off getting as much as you can from FGJ before it runs out leaving you with 25 seconds of uselessness. Then again if you are using FGJ you might aswell go Dragon slash spammer and output some big damage while pumping out mass party defence with SY!.
    I said in tactics alone. Theres no reason not to extend your usage to the norn shouts, which are far superior. And this conversation is about hammer warriors, i think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aoi Enishi View Post
    As per stance removal, in the rare cases where it exists, using On Your Knees to charge Lightning Reflexes actually provide more resistance than using Soldiers Stance since the charge of your kd is way faster than the recharge of Soldiers stance, allowing you to get up your block much faster, if not instantly should it be stripped.
    It's actually not that rare. and on the other hand, what if your attacks are being blocked, warriors have a skill that bypasses that (for more than just one attack).


    Quote Originally Posted by Aoi Enishi View Post
    As for dwarven battle stance, interrupting a single foe is pretty worthless and in PvE you ought to be pumping whirlwind and crude swings for aoe dmg, and these aoe interrupts are not more frequent than the amount of AOE kd's that you can pump out with earth shaker while still maintaining 75% block
    The worth of interrupting a single foe is solely determined by the type of foe you're interrupting, but this may just be a matter of opinion. Though i tested out the second half of your statement and it does seem sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aoi Enishi View Post
    This is ofc only the case in areas with disenchant, since in areas without disenchant moebius death blossomers outshine both warriors and rangers in melee.
    They may outshine warriors in Aoe damage output, and only aoe damage output. (this, however is debatable, Hundred blades packs a massive punch, but is dependent on the amount of foes surrounding you). That, however is a discussion I'm not willing to get into right now.

  8. #58
    GWOnline.Net Member Aoi Enishi's Avatar
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    I'm actually going to opt out of sitting here and listing the skills to you and the areas in which they are used, when you can just look them up yourself.
    Im sorry i meant to say, please provide any example where unblockable skills provide any threat in PvE and warrents not using block.

    I said in tactics alone. Theres no reason not to extend your usage to the norn shouts, which are far superior. And this conversation is about hammer warriors, i think.
    I extend my statement to: And I Am Unstoppable, which is arguably one of the best shouts availabe. It doesnt change the fact that you are spending your elite on something a non elite does just as well. What is the difference between speccing into tactics to use your elite Soldiers Stance with a norn shout and speccing into expertise to use lightning reflexes, conserve your elite and improve your energy management massively (2energy for crude swing, yay) which together with adrenaline based attacks allw you to use heavy energy skills with high utility such as YMLAD on recharge, something a warrior can not.

    Its not like tactics offer much usefulness overall (even with the buffs it got), certainly not enough to warrent a 3 attribute split (hammer, tactics, strength) especially if you need high enough to maintain soldiers stance (15=major rune=bleh), without the use of dwarven stability (even worse bar compression and defeats the purpose since its vulnerable to strips and in areas without strips assassins excel over both warriors and rangers).

    As for assassins, dblos spam pumps out over 80 aoe dmg every couple of secs, armor ignoring and with spamming dual attacks the single target dps rival even that of dragon slash while being more spammable, easier to maintain damage output, and offering more utility.

    The Assassins only weakness compared t warriors and rangers as frontliners is being heavily dependent on enchants (crit agility, crit defences etc.) making them sub par in areas with heavy disenchants.

    It's actually not that rare. and on the other hand, what if your attacks are being blocked, warriors have a skill that bypasses that (for more than just one attack).
    If you are facing foes with block, hopefully you are smart enough to change target, if not then thats not the blockings fault. If you really really need to counter block, assassins have better anti block than any other profession, and this is even usable by other professions! (Dagger ranger go go go!) Sneak Attack and Unseen fury makes for permanently maintainable unblockable killing power with the added bonus of mass blind for defence.
    Last edited by Aoi Enishi; 03-06-2011 at 21:01.

  9. #59
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    I think what he means is...

    Block afaik has no effect against magic attacks... so in PvE, for most of the stuff that comes your way, block has no effect... that's even as a frontliner.

    Of course, I'd argue that as a frontliner, there's still plenty of blockable stuff coming your way, enough to justify blocking if you can.
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  10. #60
    GWOnline.Net Member Aoi Enishi's Avatar
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    In HM even casters wand for ~50 dmg. And against elemental damage rangers are better off than warriors what with 110 armor vs elemental (+10 armor while in a stance)

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