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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Assassin was doomed in ways thief isn't necessarily. Hence the big changes.

    1) thief name suggest not good at combat, so avoid if possible... means people know what to expect more
    2) attack energy =/= other energy, so you can spam attacks in bursts *and* move in/out (sin used same energy to move or attack, so you had to choose)
    3) sin attack combo means staying in place until the combo is done, no such thing with thieves
    4) no dual profession to mess things up

    Seems like the devs looked at the assassin, said "ok, that was fail... what did we do wrong?" and then fixed it. Will it be fixed? I don't know, but it looks promising.
    Let's not forget the class ( Sin ) was highly vulnerable as well .After he beta they pretty much nerfed it into oblivion . I distinctly remember everyone rolling a sin and having lots of fun during the previews and quickly deleting it after the huge nerfs the devs implemented . They made it über-powerful at first and subsequently overdid the "nerf" . The fact there's no dual class system should prevent that to some extent as well.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    I understand your concern, but I don't think it's warranted.
    It's not really a concern for me. I expect the game to be unbalanced, especially at the start. I don't see any fundamentally broken mechanics (though the play between crippled - chilled - movement - evasion will be interesting to say the least) so that's good. Being able to quickly teleport while crippled where as other classes their instant movement is disabled sounds dangerous, and I am afraid thieves will be too immune to snares, but I've accepted that PvP balance will be of Nightfall rather than Prophecies character.
    His only chance of winning is to avoid more damage than his foe.
    Fundamentally wrong on so many levels.
    (1) You're making far too many assumptions throughout your entire post; here you're assuming the wincondition is to outdamage your opponent. The wincondition may as well be to escort / protect / assassinate an NPC, to carry and deliver a bundle item or to stay king-of-the-hill. Or maybe even die multiple times.
    (2) Making the safe assumption, that you have to kill your opponent, you assume the Thief isn't as capable of dealing ranged damage or keeping his target from dealing damage with anything other than evasive maneuvers. His set of pistols inflicts vulnerability, cripple and dazed, with its dual skill focused on dealing as much damage as possible. There's no evidence pointing at these skills as ineffective at keeping range, preventing skill use and dealing damage.

    It's becoming a theme with you that you're making some (incredibly far fetched) assumptions and building entire theories around them. Like this:
    The thief has movement, combat, and survival ability a lot more independent of each other... so these can be balanced separately.
    Since when? From the very first profession released onwards, it's been obvious that movement is a forced part of weapon skills. When you use skill X you'll move to position Z and attack target Y. Weapon skills offer both damage and movement. They're paid for by initiative. Initiative pays for both offensive and defensive maneuvers. It pays for conditions and boons. The resources used to fuel these are not seperate at all, they can't be balanced seperately.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil View Post
    It's not really a concern for me. I expect the game to be unbalanced, especially at the start. (...) PvP balance will be of Nightfall rather than Prophecies character.
    Ok. But I think the thief would be easier to balance than the sin for the above reasons.

    As for Prophecies vs Nightfall... pfft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil View Post
    you're assuming the wincondition is to outdamage your opponent.
    To the extend that GW2 is a combat game, I think it makes sense. Yes, there will be different types of events / missions (hopefully) but a lot of them will involve combat.

    Thief might be better at certain types of missions, and worse at others. Same goes with all professions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil View Post
    you assume the Thief isn't as capable of dealing ranged damage or keeping his target from dealing damage with anything other than evasive maneuvers
    No, I mean that he won't be as effective at it as other professions.

    Likewise, it's as if I claimed that you're arguing that no other professions can avoid damage by moving. I know you're not saying that. I know you'll reply that they all can avoid damage by moving, but thief will excel at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil View Post
    movement is a forced part of weapon skills
    Let me quote myself: "to a larger degree than possible before, movement and damage can be balanced separately"

    Rolls and self-heals don't use initiative, they use energy. Stealth is also energy-based. Anything on your right 5 slots is energy-based.

    Movement associated with attacks cost initiative, which means that they're balanced that way. If you use an attack to move in, and one to move out, that means you have less initiative to do the burst in between. Also, it means that you can't spam them that much.

    Yes, there's *some* cross-over like "roll for initiative", but nowhere near 100% cross-over like the sin had.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil View Post
    It's becoming a theme with you that you're making some (incredibly far fetched) assumptions and building entire theories around them
    It's becoming a theme with you that you attempt to destroy theories using shreds of evidence, without carefully trying to understand the validity of said theories.

    And it's not like we have much hard evidence to go with at this point. Case in point, we have *no* PvP information.
    Last edited by Alaris; 23-03-2011 at 19:16.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Basically, I'm saying that the problem with assassins was that they could jump in and jump out, but they didn't have to. Now I'm saying that thief not only is encouraged to do this, but he pretty much has to if he wants to live.

    For dummies version:
    High survivability + teleport + sustainable high dps = bad (sin)
    Low survivability + teleport + burst damage (not sustainable) = could work (thief)
    What on earth are you talking about? Assassin was all about low survivability and burst damage, not DPS. In PvP, I mean - I don't care about Shadow Form farmers.

  5. #45
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    I don't have an assassin PvE or PvP. I don't play the class. I also don't talk about shadowform. What I do know is from (1) conversations with people who do play it, and (2) other people who do play it in my team in PvE and in my team or against my team in PvP.

    The glass cannon is what I thought the profession was. But based on the above, I would say that the class is not used as glass cannon as much as it should... and it's more often used as frontline.

    Now please do explain one thing to me. Why do you say that assassins can't sustain dps? Thieves will run out of initiative pretty fast, so their burst is actually a burst that can't be sustained. But why can't sins sustain dps if nobody stops them?!?
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    I don't have an assassin PvE or PvP. I don't play the class.
    "Hi I have no practical experience with anything central related to this topic, but remember that every unique snowflake is worth your time."

  7. #47
    Akirai, please tone it down a bit. I can hear your sarcasm even without the internet. Play nice!

    Alaris, I realize your just speculating, but he does have a point. Perhaps you should leave the definitive comments to individuals who have actually played a similar class.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil View Post
    (...)
    Feel better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Auntie I View Post
    Perhaps you should leave the definitive comments to individuals who have actually played a similar class.
    Sorry, no.

    I have plenty of experience playing GW, including all classes except the assassin. I also have plenty of experience with shadowstepping (which is more related to the OP concerns), just not on a sin. Both in PvE and PvP. I have been attacked by and fought alongside sins plenty of time, again both in PvE and PvP.

    If my experience doesn't count, then what counts? Actually being a dev or tester for the game? No. This is a discussion thread open to everyone.

    I think I have valid theorycrafting, and I respond logically and non-emotionally to the arguments presented. I think I have some valid points, but sure, others can disagree. I respect their opinion by discussing them openly.

    I play nice.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    I have plenty of experience playing GW, including all classes except the assassin.
    Conveniently, none of these classes you have experience with make a return.
    None of the skills you know make a return.
    None of the mechanics you know make a return.
    "Oh no there are still Health/Energy/shadowstepping/adrenaline/attunements/pets/machanicX!"
    None of these function as they did in GW1. You don't know anything about how they function. It's painfully obvious in every one of your posts you have no practical experience with any of the mechanics as present in GW2.

    Yet obviously, because of your awesome theorycrafting skills, you're able to assert everything you theorycraft as fact and surety.
    I also have plenty of experience with shadowstepping (which is more related to the OP concerns), just not on a sin. Both in PvE and PvP. I have been attacked by and fought alongside sins plenty of time, again both in PvE and PvP.
    You don't have any experience with PvE or PvP. In GW2.
    You don't have any experience with shadowstepping. In GW2.
    You don't have any experience with fighting alongside sins. In GW2.
    You don't have any experience pressing a button. In GW2.
    I think I have valid theorycrafting,
    You don't. With every post you make it's painfully obvious you don't have any practical experience whatsoever in PvP with Sins beyond the likes of RA. Hell, have you ever even held Halls or been on the ladder? I highly doubt it. Even if you do you don't have any experience with this prior to GWEN. You don't know the differences in any PvP metagame featuring shadowstepping vs. one not featuring shadowstepping. Yet for some inane reason you think anyone with any experience of these does take you seriously?
    Even then, if you weren't talking complete crap at theorycrafting and had some knowledge of what you were talking about you could have saved face easily. You could have pointed out obvious fallacies in the OP's post like "how is the Thief's mobility more extreme than the Warrior's?" Rolls and in-skill movement is almost as fast as shadowstepping, the difference in speed is negligible. What is the important difference? You know, something like that would have been a good question.
    Or you could have theorycrafted along the lines of "Well, assuming the OP is correct, extreme mobility was a problem in GW1 because of <X>. If <X> is present in GW2, it'll continue being problematic. Is <X> present?" Also a valid line of inquiry.

    Instead, let's look at your first response:
    Mobility may be an issue, but they need it to survive. Assumption: do they? They have stealth and can inflict multiple weakening conditions incl. weakness, cripple and dazed.
    It'll be up to you whether to follow them or not. Assumption: we already know skills to pull enemies closer are in GW2. The Assassin could have these skills, forcing you to follow them. Checking GW2wiki would have proven you wrong, Scorpion Wire.
    Also, most professions can do at least as much damage at a range as thief and survive it too, so hit & run tactics will be matchedAssumption: you have no sources for this at all. There is reason to believe the opposite. To name the biggest, most obvious: low armor classes will probably be worse than medium armor classes at taking damage at range. Other medium armor classes will probably be equal.
    unless you forgot to bring your ranged weapon. Assumption: Guardians wielding a sword+shield and mace+shield, will still have access to ranged damage. Checking GW2wiki would have proven you wrong, Zealot's Defense and Flashing Blade.

    The recharge is for attacks. Stuff like stealth, rolls, health etc does recharge like any profession. Assumption: checking GW2wiki would have revealed at least stealth and rolls to be part of attack skills and paid for by initiative. Health iirc, can't be recovered using initiative.
    And attacks gets spent quickly. Assumption: especially melee weaponry has attack skills which don't cost a lot of initiative (dual daggers even features free skills). Initiative does not have to be spend quickly at all.
    So aside from your first post contributing more assumptions than lines and presenting them as fact, I'm not seeing a lot of theorycrafting.
    You don't craft theories, you just present your assumptions as facts. And most the time, these turn out to be wrong.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil View Post
    Yet obviously, because of your awesome theorycrafting skills, you're able to assert everything you theorycraft as fact and surety.
    Dude, get off your high horse and get back to reality. I never claimed that I was right. All I said was that I could see how it could work, because XYZ. If all you can reply is that you've been on a ladder and gotten halls and played longer than I did, nice elitism.

    Now stop trolling already.

    I state clearly my experience and my arguments. I'll respond to your arguments, if you even have one. If you understand the game better, then prove it by explaining where I'm wrong. Elitism is not a proof.

    I did say why shadowstep in GW1 was a problem, and why it's different in GW2. You got upset for some reason.
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