Pros & cons discussion of professions released so far

[Gorani]

I made this, after I felt that the Elementalist lacks a lot of versatility compared to other professions that we know now. I am not sure if I got all ground targeted skills right, but even if I misplaced one or two, you ´can see a trend.

After going through the list of skills (and I took weapon skills only), I saw some "balance" issue with Fire magic. A lot of skills focus on the burning condition, while Water and Air offer a little more variety. The focus on area effect with Fire that needs to be timed a lot (especially Burning Speed, Burning Retreat and Backdraft) means that a player playing a Fire Elementalist needs to move around the battlefield a lot more that attuning to Water or Air will demand.

Since you can change your attunements in battle this might not be a big deal, but worth thinking about.



Comments are welcome

[Alaris]

Nice analysis, I'll have to study that table later...

Here's my take...

I think they intend Fire to be the AoE damage element. Now that means that if you pick fire, you choose to have less utility value, and focus mainly on damage. Burning may be a way to limit how stackable these effects are to avoid balance issues in large-scale battles.

Also, I think that playing water, you need to keep track of where foes are but also where your allies are because of the healing. So in a way, it makes sense that fire require more skill in usage to compensate for the relatively lower complexity.

I honestly haven't looked at what air magic is good for, but I assume that similar comments may apply. edit: ok, I looked at it and looks like air magic has effects like stun, blind, and sometimes pushing or knockback... so it's utility relies more in incapacitating foes.

[Akirai Annuvil]

Comments are welcome

You list Lightning Surge as both a dagger main and staff skill. IIRC It's staff, not dagger main. This is consistent with you listing 4 individual dagger main skills rather than 3.

How about labeling: debuff --> control and buff --> support, it's more accurate as you list for example Phoenix as a buff when it is actually a heal.

[Alaris]

Also, I tend to think of buff/debuff independently of heal/damage. In my mind, buff/debuffs are modifiers, either improving / hampering your ability to deal / survive damage.

Burning, bleed, etc count as damage over time in my mind.

Any classification method is fine, of course, but you need to interpret your results in view of your classification method.

[Gorani]

You list Lightning Surge as both a dagger main and staff skill. IIRC It's staff, not dagger main. This is consistent with you listing 4 individual dagger main skills rather than 3.

How about labeling: debuff --> control and buff --> support, it's more accurate as you list for example Phoenix as a buff when it is actually a heal.

I fixed LSurge in the table.

Also, I tend to think of buff/debuff independently of heal/damage. In my mind, buff/debuffs are modifiers, either improving / hampering your ability to deal / survive damage.

Burning, bleed, etc count as damage over time in my mind.

Any classification method is fine, of course, but you need to interpret your results in view of your classification method.

I didn't want to make the classification too complex or too much suited for looking at the Elementalist only.
=> Raw numbers (for a single target, possible multiple targets & a ground targeted AoE)
=> "buff" (anything that adds a beneficial effect that "makes numbers of allies go up" or adds something they usually don't have; single target or possible multiple targets)
=> "debuff" (anything that adds a malign effect "that makes numbers of enemies go down" - DPS if you like - or reduces / takes something away you usually have; single target or possible multiple targets)

[Alaris]

Your classification is fine... and your conclusions are in-line with your classification.

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I usually prefer to classify into:

Damage: counts both raw damage and any condition that damages over time. Conditions that do damage do it over time, and often stacks non-additively... so it provides tools to balance spikes and large-scale battles. I like to think of heals (and prots) as negative damage, and include it here.

Support: modifiers... anything that makes you more effective, or makes the opponents less effective. Some will include healing and cond removal in here, although I would count healing as negative damage and classify it above instead (same with prots). Support can be further split into whether it affects foes or allies, and whether it changes your ability to deal damage or to survive it.

Utility: anything else like controlling movement, positioning, stealth, etc... Stuff here might be combat-relevant, but often in a way that is situational. For example, a speed buff could help offensively or defensively, depending on how it's used...

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Regardless of how you choose to categorize, it's important to have few categories so you can see trends.

[Gorani]

I haven't had time to work on the table I have created for the Ele (see post #5706380) with the changes made to the profession at Gamescom & PAX, but I think it is save to say that the number of raw damage skills has gone down.
Almost every skill except the no recharge skill at slot #1 has some sort of buff or debuff attached to the damage value. You either e.g. burn, chill, stun the foe or add some boon to yourself or allies.

IMO, this is a great step for the Ele and put it back on the versatility list compared to other classes like the Guardian.

I haven't looked at other classes, but is this a trend there as well?

[Gorani]

A short announcement:

The table I have posted on the 31st of May is severely outdated (conditions seems to have been finalized by now, which have not been available in May; weapons & their associated skills have been swapped) and will be replaced by a new one in the Ele forum soon.


New discussion here:

After working on the abilities of the Elementalist to cause conditions (+daze & stun) I have discovered that the Necro and to slightly lesser degree the Guardian are both leading the list of skills that can cause and more importantly remove conditions.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition

A Necro e.g. has seven skills to remove a condition, the Ele (& Warrior + Engineer) only two and Healing Rain is bound to a Staff only (which the Ele can not swap out during combat for an other weapon). The Thief lacks any condition removing skill.

Does that inequality seem right to you? Could that be a factor in creating a new kind of "holy trinity", because condition removal might be vital to successful gameplay?

[Xilisys]

New discussion here:

After working on the abilities of the Elementalist to cause conditions (+daze & stun) I have discovered that the Necro and to slightly lesser degree the Guardian are both leading the list of skills that can cause and more importantly remove conditions.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition

A Necro e.g. has seven skills to remove a condition, the Ele (& Warrior + Engineer) only two and Healing Rain is bound to a Staff only (which the Ele can not swap out during combat for an other weapon). The Thief lacks any condition removing skill.

Does that inequality seem right to you? Could that be a factor in creating a new kind of "holy trinity", because condition removal might be vital to successful gameplay?

The Necro skills related to condition removal seem like you could make an amazing combo of annoying fun.

I don't see the Necro or Guardian becoming the new Monk or anything. They have a ton of condition removal skills, and they can use almost all of them on their bar at once. Taking them will limit their ability to do much else (other than weapon skills) in a current fight. They'll be able to remove all your conditions (and effectively put them on enemies if they're a Necro), but they won't be able to effectively do what they are intended to do, or to heal you (making them not a monk-type character). Looking at all of the current condition removal skills, the only classes incapable of effectively keeping conditions off of themselves are Elementalists and Thieves (unless the Ele is a staff user, but still).

Kinda making me rethink making a Thief first for WvWvW. The only defense the Thief has against conditions is quick surprise attacks followed by stealth to escape. I don't think this will make a new Holy Trinity. I do, however, see Guardians becoming the main support class.

[Alaris]

Does that inequality seem right to you?

Yes, because professions differ in how they get the job done, and that includes conditions.

I see frontlines as doing more damage, but also being more vulnerable to shutdown. Shutdown is how midline deals with frontline.

Frontline also protects midline by putting themselves in the line of fire, midline protects frontline via support.

They're all trade-offs. But the tradeoff isn't in what you do, but how you do it.

And so on. It's a complex system, but I think generally that professions that more actively do X more passively do Y, and vice-versa.