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  1. #1

    On the gods, Elder Dragons and creation

    I am new to this forum , so please direct me to other threads if i have missed those
    that already discuss this subject.

    First off the "Human Gods"

    According to the human history they "created Tyria"
    However on closer examination of the actual lore book from GW:P

    Qoute:

    It was almost three thousand years ago that a race of serpents stepped out of the Rift onto the soil of Tyria. Unlike ordinary serpents, these moved upright, used language, and adhered to an elaborate culture. They had been summoned by the old gods, brought to this world to be the custodians. Their task: shepherd the other creatures of the land through this time of transition, while the gods continued to create the world around them

    It is stated that tyria either already existed or they were change it.
    It does not directly state that they were the creators.

    It further states in the lore book of GW:P that the Humans were the first
    and only Race to rise to providence and not adhere to the benevolent teachings of the Forgotten.

    Quote :

    From the Tarnished Coast in the west to the Bay of Sirens (now called the Sea of Sorrows) in the south, from the far eastern reaches of the Crystal Desert to the Giants' Basin on the northern coast of Kryta, Tyria flourished under the protection of these mystical creatures. The serpents were the protectors of the land, the keepers of knowledge, the teachers of all things, and during their time the world was in balance.

    Through the various Scriptures and the fact that the custodians(Forgotten) Summoned from the rift by the gods were not aided by these same gods during there push out of the world of tyria by humans. We now all "assume"
    that humans are the Chosen race of these gods.

    Now for the actual question to these pieces of "Human History" that make no sense at all given what we know about guildwars 2 and the Eldar Dragons.

    First off the Problem of the Char as an atheist race.

    If they existed before the the humans arrived on Tyria 205 BE
    then over they coexisted with the forgotten who also spread word about the
    "Gods" and since the Lore guides of GW:P "reads"/suggests" that humans
    human were the first to "Defy" the forgotten and there teachings by making there own ways.

    Second The slight paradox of the Elder Dragons.

    Why would the gods create beings other then themselves
    who are capable of not only destroying there chosen race
    but also the world they have created over the course of millennia?.

    To answer this apparent conflict i draw 3 possible conclusions.

    1 What we know up to know was Human history and only a small glimpse
    of Tyrias general history.

    Or ( and please be open minded )

    2 The dragons are in fact extra dimensional beings similar to the Human gods.

    Now first Read Page 334 to 340 of the Pocket version of Edge of Destiny
    the few pages before the chapter Dragon Rise.

    In here Glint states that "3000 years she was Set here as a custodian of the world ( Tyria ) . Hmm what do we also know about +- 3000 years ago?
    Ah yes the Forgotten were summoned from the rift. (Assuming Human history is fact)

    She then tells our good heroes that she has infact already lived through at least One Awakening of the Eldar Dragons. Now knowing that these are very hungry critters so to speak you'd think that we would have some lore detailing mass extinctions 3000 years ago, we dont (I say 3000 years ago because thats when glint supposedly arived on tyria).

    So if this has happend before were is the evidence?

    3 Human History is True and false in the fact that the Human Gods created Tyria.

    Again this is going to be a long shot but hear me out.

    The Dragons were last awake at the time of the extinction/dissaperence of the Giganticus Lupicus at 10000 BE. The dragons Ate them giving proof
    of a mass extinction event ( and certainly giving them a full belly ).
    The world was then barren over the course of the next 7000 years
    at wich point the human Gods step in from the Rift and take matters in there
    own hands. Thus creating the world as the Humans know it but knot being the ultimate creators of the World.


    I was going to tie in the dwarvens but as so little concrete is known about them i reather not pull any more longshots ( as i think i have reached my limet for quete a while )

    This was written at 1 am in the morning during a night of insomnia .

    Please dicuss,comment,elaborate ( and be mercyfull )
    Last edited by Mr Sobani; 22-06-2011 at 23:40.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Sobani View Post
    To answer this apparent conflict i draw 3 possible conclusions.

    1 What we know up to know was Human history and only a small glimpse
    of Tyrias general history.

    Or ( and please be open minded )

    2 The dragons are in fact extra dimensional beings similar to the Human gods.

    Now first Read Page 334 to 340 of the Pocket version of Edge of Destiny
    the few pages before the chapter Dragon Rise.

    In here Glint states that "3000 years she was Set here as a custodian of the world ( Tyria ) . Hmm what do we also know about +- 3000 years ago?
    Ah yes the Forgotten were summoned from the rift. (Assuming Human history is fact)

    She then tells our good heroes that she has infact already lived through at least One Awakening of the Eldar Dragons. Now knowing that these are very hungry critters so to speak you'd think that we would have some lore detailing mass extinctions 3000 years ago, we dont (I say 3000 years ago because thats when glint supposedly arived on tyria).

    So if this has happend before where is the evidence?

    3 Human History is True and false in the fact that the Human Gods created Tyria.

    Again this is going to be a long shot but hear me out.

    The Dragons were last awake at the time of the extinction/dissaperence of the Giganticus Lupicus at 10000 BE. The dragons Ate them giving proof
    of a mass extinction event ( and certainly giving them a full belly ).
    The world was then barren over the course of the next 7000 years
    at which point the human Gods stepped in from the Rift and thook matters in there
    own hands. Thus creating the world as the Humans know it but knot being the ultimate creators of the World.


    I was going to tie in the dwarvens but as so little concrete is known about them i reather not pull any more longshots ( as i think i have reached my limet for quete a while )

    This was written at 1 am in the morning during a night of insomnia .

    Please dicuss,comment,elaborate ( and be mercyfull )

    Afther sleep and better research i would like to amend the conclusions i have drawn above.

    Conclusion number 1 : To vague please forget reading it.

    Conclusion number 3 extra add of information :

    The dwarven race, lore (and if the new GW2 trail is considered lore)
    basicly states that the reason the dwarves exist is to fight the Destroyers
    (Elder dragons and servents thereof). So how about this along with the
    other elder races ( Seer , Mursaat , Druids ) the great Dwarf is a survivor of the last dragon reign. Unlike the seers , mursaat and the druids the Great Dwarfs race was hit more severly , proberly by primordius retreating underground into there domain. While the mursaat and seers fell into wars.
    The Great dwarf as progenitor created the dwarf race not to destroy the elder dragons (as this to them was proven inpossible durring there existence under the eldar dragons) but to prevent them from waking up. I know that this indicates that the entire dwarven race is noting but a set of tools.

    The reason that i state that the mursaat and seers were survivors of the first reign of the dragons is because Glint notes them as ancient. This conclusion (Conclusion 3) implies that glint was over 11000 years old , and when a being of this age decribes ancient i personaly am more inclined to believe that this was truely a long time ago.


    Now with this reply i have tryed to integrate te old races , however
    The norn and asura are not factored into this.

    The norn for once, while the Spirets of the Wild could be interrpeted as servents of Melandru or relatives of the Druids ( Post ascencion as encountered during GW:P in there spiritual form). Further more in the shape shifting ability of the norn magic? and
    iff so why dont we have evidence of norn before they could transform. Because magic was gifted by the "Human Gods"


    And then there is the asura.

    If the gods (Human gods) gifted the races of tyria with magic then this
    would seem to contradict everything they believe ( Ethernal Alchemy ).
    We know that the human gods are a fact due to the following:

    We have had interactions with there emisary"s (Temple of ages during favour and the
    actual beings labeld as emisary's during the cantha campaing )

    We have prove that they were at someting in tyria and that they gifterd magic and modified it ( the booldstones ).

    As far as i understand the Ethernal Alchemy is states that everything is part of a larger whole and there for it must have always existed in some form or another.The Adding of magic seams to be indicrect opposite of this basis.

    The sylvariys origin is not discussed as while we know the orgin clear then any other race , that currently about all we do know about them.

    The Human cunundrum :

    They appear on tyria afther there gods "terraformed tyria" sugestion that they like there gods are not native to tyria at all.

    Secondly most of the other "new" races ( Excluding dwarves and asura)
    could have evolved of current of be on ofshoot of animal life. ( Char > Lion ancestors? for example )

    How ever there is no indication of human evolution currently within lore or the game.
    Last edited by Mr Sobani; 23-06-2011 at 11:03. Reason: More thinking on the subject

  3. #3
    Mr. Sobani, if you want to modify your initial post, there should be an edit button at the bottom. Also, for quotes, you can use the quote tags: [quote ] [/ quote]. Without spaces, of course. If you want to identify the source, simply modify the [quote] tag to include an = sign after the word quote, e.g. [quote=source].

  4. #4
    Thanks for the information ill keep a closer eye on it.

  5. #5
    I'll just say that Glint being made the guardian of Tyria 3,000 years ago does mean that's when she was made.

    In fact, it would seem to me that is not the case, as she was made as Kralkatorrik's champion, not the guardian/custodian of Tyria.

    It seems more likely that 3,000 years ago is when she made the pact with the Six Gods to be the custodian of the world and with said pact, the forgotten were brought, and that Glint is far older than 3,000 years.

  6. #6
    allright, how I envision the creation of the world (universe) of tyria: I think it all began with The Mists.
    Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.
    Taken from the manuscript.

    From the Mists, somehow, the universe formed, including planet Tyria. How the timeline went, I do not know, and I think its very difficult to say anything sensible about that too. The human history books might be wrong, for various reasons. Now, I presume that from the Mists, also the Gods were formed. The Gods are obviously not omnipotent, seeing as they can be defeated, and possibly do not care much for the Humans and other beings on the world of Tyria. (Why don't they grand us miniguns to destroy the elder dragons?) The dragons might have been created from the Mist as well, or are beings created by other unknown Gods. (or maybe even created by the Old Gods for some unknown reason). We just do not know enough.

    As for the origin of life on Tyria? Possibly life was created, by the Gods or the Mists. Possibly it just evolved.. I think this is most likely the case for most creatues. (the dwarfs might be an exception, together with the Forgotten.) Again we simply do not know for certain. The Guild Wars version of Darwin has yet to show him(her)self.

    Magic comes from the ether I believe. Ether is the substance that mesmer use for their magic. Therefore it might also be used differently by all the other caster professions. The origins of Ether? Perhaps also emanations from the mist, seeing as the mists is the mortar that holds the world together, it penetrates everything, like ether. The Gods, when they granted us magic, probably just taught us how to bend the ether and preform magical feats.

    And the meaning of the other Spirits and Gods of tyria? (Koda, the spirits of the wild, maybe even the pale tree) Either they are created through the mist because sentient beings started believing in them, or they are, like Mr. Sobani suggested, different aspects of the Old Gods. The pale tree is also very interesting to read about. A tree spirit being that can sense the world around her and is connected with her.. seedlings, and saps from them their strongest emotions and thought. Maybe the collective subconcious of the sylvari make up the Pale tree. But this is a discussion for another time.

    (On a more personal note, Lyssa is the most interesting of all the Gods. Being the Goddess of chaos and beauty, illusion and truth, she might be the one that is keeping us from seeing the truth, keeping us under a certain world-illusion. So pray to her, everyday, for she might lift the illusion a bit and give you insight into the truths about the world. But that is something the Lyssa mystics among us should meditate on. ;) )

    PS: I might add something later on, seeing as I'm tired. Forgive me if I did not make sense at all.
    Last edited by Nohjo; 12-08-2011 at 22:45.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nohjo View Post
    Now, I presume that from the Mists, also the Gods were formed.
    Thats an awful big assumption. Didn't the manuscripts state that the Gods came to Tyria. That means they weren't formed at all. Perhaps they always existed.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nohjo View Post
    The Gods are obviously not omnipotent, seeing as they can be defeated,
    Ahem, by other Gods they can be defeated. That still makes them pretty damn powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nohjo View Post
    and possibly do not care much for the Humans and other beings on the world of Tyria.
    Their presence on this world seems to suggest otherwise. They seem to care quite a big deal, enough to send down avatars to communicate to the humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nohjo View Post
    (Why don't they grand us miniguns to destroy the elder dragons?)
    The dragons are older more powerful beings than the Gods would be the obvious answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nohjo View Post
    (On a more personal note, Lyssa is the most interesting of all the Gods. Being the Goddess of chaos and beauty, illusion and truth, she might be the one that is keeping us from seeing the truth, keeping us under a certain world-illusion.
    No, that would have been Abaddon God of Secrets, now Kormir Goddess of truth.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Van Der Sloot View Post
    Thats an awful big assumption. Didn't the manuscripts state that the Gods came to Tyria. That means they weren't formed at all. Perhaps they always existed.
    I know that we don't know for certain, but that is what seems most likely. And if you look at real mythologies, equivalents of the mists exists. And these "real" Mists most of the time spawn the gods of that mythology. So I think we can assume that something similar can be said for the GuildWars mythology.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Van Der Sloot View Post
    Ahem, by other Gods they can be defeated. That still makes them pretty damn powerful.
    Abaddon was defeated by humans. And being pretty damn powerful does not make you omnipotent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Van Der Sloot View Post
    Their presence on this world seems to suggest otherwise. They seem to care quite a big deal, enough to send down avatars to communicate to the humans.
    Yes you are right about that, though if I care for someone, and I was a God, I would help them a great deal more. But then again, I'm not a God, and Gods work in mysterious ways.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Van Der Sloot View Post
    The dragons are older more powerful beings than the Gods would be the obvious answer.
    Same here, the elder dragons might be equally or more powerful than the Gods. If they really cared, they could battle the Dragons themselves, instead of letting us puny humans get stepped on. Or atleast give us much more effective weaponry to fight them.
    (maybe they are fighting the dragons, in the mists or in some other dimention. And is that the reason why the Gods are less present in GuildWars2, because they are being repressed by the Elder Dragons).



    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Van Der Sloot View Post
    No, that would have been Abaddon God of Secrets, now Kormir Goddess of truth.
    I thought about that, but it just doesn't add up. Lyssa is the Goddess of illusion, wouldn't that automatically make her the Goddess of truth? (being 2 faced and all...)


    Maybe we are all taking this way to serious. ;)
    Last edited by Nohjo; 26-08-2011 at 10:56.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nohjo View Post
    I know that we don't know for certain, but that is what seems most likely. And if you look at real mythologies, equivalents of the mists exists. And these "real" Mists most of the time spawn the gods of that mythology. So I think we can assume that something similar can be said for the GuildWars mythology.
    Still, for the sake of lore you'd have to first base it on some evidence before making the assumption. Currently, the manuscripts explicitly state the opposite, and no evidence what so ever indicates otherwise... so... what's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nohjo View Post
    Abaddon was defeated by humans. And being pretty damn powerful does not make you omnipotent.
    Abaddon was defeated while severely weakened by the Gods, and imprisoned, and while the heroes were aided by the Gods. Not to mention one of the heroes actually took his place and became a Goddess herself in the process. I would call those less than fair circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nohjo View Post
    Yes you are right about that, though if I care for someone, and I was a God, I would help them a great deal more. But then again, I'm not a God, and Gods work in mysterious ways.
    That only holds true for the Judeo-Christian God. In Guild Wars the Gods do not seem to work in mysterious ways at all. They seem to be quite present, and noticeable, and their ways seem pretty straight forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nohjo View Post
    (maybe they are fighting the dragons, in the mists or in some other dimention. And is that the reason why the Gods are less present in GuildWars2, because they are being repressed by the Elder Dragons).
    Currently there's no reason to assume they are capable of fighting the dragons at all. The Gods of Tyria seem to need their followers in order to do anything to stop the dragons... and its a losing battle. Maybe they are being repressed by the dragons, maybe the humans forgot about them, maybe the people of Tyria no longer needed them, and maybe a bit of all of those things together. I wonder if GW2 will answer this... the silent reply I got to my question at Gamescom seems to suggest that we will learn more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nohjo View Post
    I thought about that, but it just doesn't add up. Lyssa is the Goddess of illusion, wouldn't that automatically make her the Goddess of truth? (being 2 faced and all...)
    Being the Goddess of Illusion does not automatically make you the Godess of lies as well... (although some necromancers might view this differently). Lyssa is mostly about inspiration, the driving force behind art and creativity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nohjo View Post
    Maybe we are all taking this way to serious. ;)
    Lore is serious business. :P

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