Here's one for you: Churchgoing atheists.

[Alaris]

Art, you know what I meant.

[Art]

I know, just grumbling cause it's cold here.

And they've cancelled the "Shh, we're actually Satanists but pass ourselves off as atheists" meeting tonight - shame too, it was our bi-annual laugh-a-lot with our sister organisation pastors from the "Shh, we're actually Satanists but pass ourselves off as religious" centre.

-Art

[Alaris]

Art, what you said is offensive to this group:

http://www.churchofsatan.com/

[Art]

Thanks Alaris!

Funnily enough Anton LaVey is pretty much up my street and were he alive I think he'd have no problem with me name-shaming (new word) folk who are full of it in either side of the camp of theism.

-Art

[Skyy High]

Plus, good luck being a good Christian woman and not having sex with the atheist guy they're dating. (and good luck trying to keep the athetist guy ... or any non-Christian guy around when you don't put out)

You have a very strict definition of what it means to be a "true" Christian. 95% of adult Americans (in 2002) admitted to having premarital sex. Don't think that this is solely the result of sex-crazed teenagers running rampant; 90% of women born in the 1940s admitted to having premarital sex as well, and at least some of that difference is easily explained by the fact that the median age for women to get married has gone up significantly. The data also show pretty conclusively that the image of the pristine woman trying to keep the debased man out of her knickers is antiquated by over half a century; both men and women are having premarital bootknocking sessions at these rates. That's actually my biggest peeve with this post, the idea that Christian women would be safe if not for the horny hordes of men pushing themselves onto them. Both genders are equally to blame, if any blame must be handed out.

[Zalis]

You have a very strict definition of what it means to be a "true" Christian. 95% of adult Americans (in 2002) admitted to having premarital sex. Don't think that this is solely the result of sex-crazed teenagers running rampant; 90% of women born in the 1940s admitted to having premarital sex as well, and at least some of that difference is easily explained by the fact that the median age for women to get married has gone up significantly. The data also show pretty conclusively that the image of the pristine woman trying to keep the debased man out of her knickers is antiquated by over half a century; both men and women are having premarital bootknocking sessions at these rates. That's actually my biggest peeve with this post, the idea that Christian women would be safe if not for the horny hordes of men pushing themselves onto them. Both genders are equally to blame, if any blame must be handed out.

It goes both ways, for sure. I didn't mean to imply that all women are chaste and men are horndogs, as my idea had more to do with couples or partners who didn't care about Biblical standards.

I'm also not saying that people who have [done x] in the past (read: whatever, sexual or otherwise) aren't Christians. God forgives when we're willing to repent, though circumstances linger. What I am saying is that someone who's actually following Christ <now> will care about what the Bible says about things for their current relationship life. If they're flagrantly ignoring important things and they're not being convicted about it, it might be time to ask them some hard questions. So, there has to be a certain point at which not following or caring about anything makes one's claimed faith kind of a joke.

It's like a guy who claims he loves his wife, but never calls, talks to, spends time with or reads her letters. It may even go as far as him cheating on her. He can say he loves her all day long, but the actions and attitudes speak louder than claims or labels.

[Alaris]

Yes, it's true. I have been pressured into sex before. *sob*

Oh wait, I meant *yay*

[RD]

I have a question RE: Premarital sex.

Let's say you're a Christian, but you keep banging before marriage. You are a loving person, not a "fake" Christian at all, you just like doing it with your girl. But you do get that good old Christian guilt. You confess it when you go to confession, but you never stop. Are you a "real" Christian? Are you "forgiven," even though you never stopped?

[Zalis]

I have a question RE: Premarital sex.

Let's say you're a Christian, but you keep banging before marriage. You are a loving person, not a "fake" Christian at all, you just like doing it with your girl. But you do get that good old Christian guilt. You confess it when you go to confession, but you never stop. Are you a "real" Christian? Are you "forgiven," even though you never stopped?

My take is that the person is in willful disobedience at that point, as it's different than a one-time thing or "whoops, I lied," etc. Real faith equates real change. So, while Christians are far from perfect, the core of it is being repentant, confessing the sin (no priest required-yay!) and turning away from what you were doing. It may not happen overnight, but eventual change should come. Paul didn't become a Christian in the New Testament and then continue to go on murdering Christians, for example.

Return volley: If they habitually say they're sorry for something, but keep doing it anyway because they like it, are they really repentant? Or do they just feel bad when they get caught doing it? (read: guilt/grief/feeling sorry is not repentance; repentance results in change)

[Alaris]

A lot of those rules were written for a different people. I think the values were good overall, but the rules should be updated to present times.

I'd say the point of the rule was to help couples be stable over time. A lot of couples are long-term stable and yet never get married these days. I would not say they are doing something bad.

Someone who puts effort into his/her relationship to make it last and to be loving, and to not get into meaningless relationships that can hurt people... that's what matters.