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Thread: Disappointment?

  1. #21
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    Wait, I thought I was talking about mesmers... Oh yea, I was. Not sure why you mentioned necromancer, because those have somewhat changed role since GW1. Somewhat.

    Teleporting between capture and treb sounds OP, but then someone could camp a portal and spike whatever comes through it (mesmers = squishy). It might still be OP though.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Simply Kedde View Post
    There's simply no other game than guildwars which has ever given me the same feeling of enlightened teamwork. It's such a great feeling when 8 people all know what they're meant to do instinctively and just flow around the battlefield like a unified presence. That is what we want to feel when playing gw2, and the biggest fear is that we won't get that same feeling.
    Every profession basically does the same thing in different ways now; they're all self-contained "Adventurer" classes who can gain some advantages from teaming up if they like, but basically have no need of eachother.
    That we weren't getting a dedicated backline was the first clue. Without a backline, there are no need for lines at all. And of course then you can't center the Mes around the disruptive role it had -yes, past tense- in GW 1.
    I find this very bad, as it breaks with the fundamental concept (team-based PvP) that made Gilworz such a mechanically amazing game, in favour of the same tired concept (solo-centric PvE) everyone else has been running since Blizzard dreamed up Diablo.
    -But I'll still be playing GW 2, I suppose. I see no reason the PvE won't be splendid, at least.

  3. #23
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    Soulstorm, you're wrong on so many counts...

    Healers (or more generally, trinity) forces teamwork. Many MMOs are built with classes that purposely can't do some part of the work, so that others are required to pitch in. Every 5-man WoW instance, afaik, is run with 1 tank 1 heal 3 dps, they even made a dungeon finder based on that. Even with the finder, dps are willing to wait for a tank & heal 30+ min because they are built to fail without those two others. It's a terrible way to make teamwork in a game, but... for lack of a better thing, it works.

    GW2 has hybrids. But even then, don't expect to frontline with a mesmer, or to be of any use in the backline with a warrior (unless you ranged dps, maybe). You still have clearly squishy professions, and you still have professions that can clearly frontline. The difference is that you have more profession that can buy the frontline some time when needed. And every profession can ranged dps and bring some support, but within a fight your build is fixed, so you can't that easily swap places without sacrificing some effectiveness.

    Teamwork will also be about combos, and making sure people don't step on each other's toes. People will need to frontline, sometimes taking turns to let another regen. They'll need to protect their backline. They'll need to boon each other being careful not to waste their boons for when they need it.

    Those who have played dungeons so far said that teamwork was important to success. It's just a bit hard to tell what kind of teamwork is involved, since it's a new system. But that's because we have nothing to compare to, not because it's lacking from GW2.
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  4. #24
    I just said there aren't going to be any lines of battle, and you drone on about lines anyway. Trinity is bad because it's not about lines at all; it's a gimmick. And one irrelevant to PvP.
    -I didn't talk about teamwork either, I know there's going to be teamwork. It would hardly qualify as an online game otherwise.
    I talked about the change in what is the fundamental unit of the game, from the team in GW 1 to the single player in GW 2. And this shift is a bad one to me; a huge step backwards.
    As pretty and sparkly as GW 2 is going to be, mechanically it's looking to become essentially Diablo 3.5.

    And I fully expect to frontline with my Mesmer when I get to play it. There won't be anything but the fronline to work on.
    Last edited by Soulstorm; 19-12-2011 at 15:43.

  5. #25
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    In 1vs1, there's no frontline. But in large enough events, there is. As a mesmer, all you need to have a frontline is either (1) a frontline ally, (2) a racial summon, or (3) your phantasms and clones. I'd say that as a mesmer, if you toe-to-toe foes, you're doing it wrong.

    Granted, you don't get a reliable frontline, and things will get chaotic. But in my mind, this is part of the fun.
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  6. #26
    not disappointed at all

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstorm View Post
    I just said there aren't going to be any lines of battle, and you drone on about lines anyway. Trinity is bad because it's not about lines at all; it's a gimmick. And one irrelevant to PvP.
    -I didn't talk about teamwork either, I know there's going to be teamwork. It would hardly qualify as an online game otherwise.
    I talked about the change in what is the fundamental unit of the game, from the team in GW 1 to the single player in GW 2. And this shift is a bad one to me; a huge step backwards.
    As pretty and sparkly as GW 2 is going to be, mechanically it's looking to become essentially Diablo 3.5.

    And I fully expect to frontline with my Mesmer when I get to play it. There won't be anything but the fronline to work on.
    There will be solo stuff that you can do by yourself. And there will be missions where you are required to team up with a party of 8. There will also be mass events where you have to fight along side 100s of people. So it will be a mix of all favors.

    There is no front line in GW1 b/c there were only 8 players. With such a small army it is better to use a loose formation and support each other from distance, guerilla warfare. Those Mass events with 100s of players in GW2 will be different. I am sure some missions you BETTER form a line. There are 500 mobs charging at you. If the warriors let those mobs though those mages at the back are dead meat.

    Mesmer vs 10+ mobs at once = dead. No way he/she can survive. Look at a battle of the scale of this video. Trust me your Mesmer won't be soloing.

    Last edited by CHIPS; 19-12-2011 at 23:42.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Wait, I thought I was talking about mesmers...
    You were comparing- wait this thread's about PvP, why am I bothering replying to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstorm View Post
    Every profession basically does the same thing in different ways now; they're all self-contained "Adventurer" classes who can gain some advantages from teaming up if they like, but basically have no need of eachother.
    That we weren't getting a dedicated backline was the first clue. Without a backline, there are no need for lines at all. And of course then you can't center the Mes around the disruptive role it had -yes, past tense- in GW 1.
    Not quite. Without a backline,there is no frontline (no thesis-antithesis). Let alone a midline, spatially in between the front and back. How did the back-mid-front in GW1 came to be?
    Well, the frontline came because effective damage was melee, while support was casting range, meaning effective damage lead the team (frontline, nearest the opposition) while support followed (backline, away from the opposition). In GW1 support was however divided in two further lines - mid and backline. Where did this division come from when all supportive roles had the same casting range? Target ally and target foe. The monk could effectively support using only target ally skills and that was the reason the backline existed as the monk did not need to be capable of targeting enemies. Why did the midline exist? They needed to be able to target enemies but being support had the luxury of casting range; meaning they could stay away from frontline.
    Looking at the complete chain of facts, stating that without a dedicated backline, no dedicated healers, there is no frontline is too simplistic. There could have been a system of line formation. Damage = melee, support = ranged, are the only two necessities for developing line formations. A rulesystem which is still possible in PvP - ranged 'damage' tends to focus on PvP damage. This might be too inefficient or avoidable to be effective, making effective damage in PvP melee. And if ranged support = melee support there's no reason to prefer ranged.
    This does seem unlikely, but it is possible. It will also be incredibly hard to maintain the balance.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil View Post
    Looking at the complete chain of facts, stating that without a dedicated backline, no dedicated healers, there is no frontline is too simplistic.
    Yes; I cede that point as too bluntly put.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil View Post
    There could have been a system of line formation. Damage = melee, support = ranged, are the only two necessities for developing line formations. A rulesystem which is still possible in PvP - ranged 'damage' tends to focus on PvP damage. This might be too inefficient or avoidable to be effective, making effective damage in PvP melee. And if ranged support = melee support there's no reason to prefer ranged.
    This does seem unlikely, but it is possible. It will also be incredibly hard to maintain the balance.
    Thing is, while there might be some sort of support line in play, without a dedicated healer (and/or prot, not to forget) role, it just won't be the critical objective it was in GW. You might as well bring your team to bear on the opposing W as on the -say- Guardian that's occasionally buffing it. A team is no longer critically interlocked like in GW. At least, I don't see anything indicating it is.

    I recall a major point of criticism against the later GW metas was the dominance of hybrids (the WoH-protter, the MoI Ele and so on), and now we're apparently getting a whole game full of hybrids.
    And it's not even the GW 1 hybrids with their still limited roles (a WoH-hybrid could heal and prot but not deal damage, for example), but full-on allrounders.

    In other words, will there be any reason to not just find the class and weapon set that offers the best damage output, and then filling your team with those, like the eight Warrior teams of very early GW GvGs?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstorm View Post
    In other words, will there be any reason to not just find the class and weapon set that offers the best damage output, and then filling your team with those, like the eight Warrior teams of very early GW GvGs?
    Hopefully, the system will be as such that it is better to adaptively play (as a whole team) in an offensive style or a defensive one, depending on the circumstances. That is, if the enemy pushes hard, playing in a way that conserves the resources of the own team (by for example preventing damage from being applied) while expending the resources of the enemy team/exploiting mistakes that they are forced to make because they are attempting to play offensively.

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