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  1. #361
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    Wow RDarken, it's easy to forget that there must be smart sensible republicans out there given what the party is acting like. I would love to see that (or something like that) happening.

    Sometimes I think that the circus show is there because what the republicans really stand for is a hard pill to swallow, and thus they think they need to do this in order to win the votes to actually get the job done.
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  2. #362
    Just what do the Republicans stand for, that's such a hard pill to swallow? What do the Democrats stand for that's easier to swallow? Pray enlighten me, and leave the extremes out of it.
    mv

  3. #363
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    I think a majority of normal people who identify as Republican are smart and sensible. It's just that we get shown the nuts, for whatever reason, and then stupid people buy into it. I think stupid people tend to be a bit louder in expressing their opinions... I think the candidates are so freaking out of their minds because the Republican party seems to choose candidates that are polar opposite to the elected Democrat.

    MV's question isn't directed at me, but here's a list of things that boggle my mind:
    - Anyone who opposes universal healthcare (predominantly a Republican position - only 34 democrats voted against Obama's reform)
    - Anyone who (still) favors lower taxes for wealthy (seems to me this is a problem in both parties, but Democrats are more apt to say they're outraged over taxes, whereas Republicans are happy to say things are fine and we should keep lowering them)
    - Anyone who opposes same-sex marriage (predominantly a Republican position)
    - Supporters of SOPA / whatever else ($$$$$)

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixedVariety View Post
    Just what do the Republicans stand for, that's such a hard pill to swallow? What do the Democrats stand for that's easier to swallow? Pray enlighten me, and leave the extremes out of it.
    You know, I'd like to know as well. They're both seem to be screwing up the US. They're just presenting and doing it differently.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by RDarken View Post
    MV's question isn't directed at me, but here's a list of things that boggle my mind:
    Sorry but yeah, my question is directed at anyone who wishes to respond, so thanks.

    What goes on is general ignorance of what both sides advocate (I'm not calling you ignorant, just many of the general public). In reality, on almost any issue, both sides have pros and cons and are misinterpreted with generalities.

    Let me take your taxes example. Here's what the two parties think (and again, I'm talking the general middle of the bell-curve, not the extremists) about taxes:

    Republicans:

    -Government should practice fiscal responsibility and let people keep more of what they earn. The national debt is huge not because the public isn't taxed enough, but because the government spends too much. (Do you disagree?)
    -Higher taxes discourage hard work. The U.S. has one of the highest corporate tax rates of all developed countries, which tends to squash corporate initiative in the U.S. and leads to sending jobs overseas.
    -Fifty-three percent of self-identified Republicans back an increase in taxes on households making more than $250,000, a sentiment at odds with the party’s presidential candidates. (It's the candidates who are causing the trouble, I tell ya!)

    Democrats:

    -Historically, lowering taxes on the wealthy is on a par with Democrat regimes as much as Republican ones. In fact, the rates for individuals in the highest tax bracket began to fall under Kennedy, a Democrat, and continued through Johnson, another Democrat. Lower tax rates in general is generally a bipartisan effort (and I think it should be).
    -Democrats support a progressive tax structure. This can help provide more services and reduce economic inequality. Currently they have proposed reversing those tax cuts the Bush administration gave to the wealthiest Americans while wishing to keep in place those given to the middle class. Most Republican citizens are also in favor of this. (Again, the candidates themselves are the ones acting all radical about it).

    The truth is that there are good points to be made on both sides. Republican-leaning people tend to think Democrats are a bunch of pansies who want to change our government to Communism, and sing Kumbaya around the campfire. Democrat-leaning people tend to think Republicans are a bunch of gun-toting bible-thumping rednecks who don't want to change with the times. Both sides couldn't be more wrong.
    mv

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Plenty of blame to go around.
    They do that too. They spend more money on "ads" that blame the other guys than on ads telling people how good they themselves are.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by MixedVariety View Post
    Just what do the Republicans stand for, that's such a hard pill to swallow? What do the Democrats stand for that's easier to swallow? Pray enlighten me, and leave the extremes out of it.
    not intending to make a godwin here, but in Belgium we have an extreme rightwing party called the VB. This party has been judged and sentenced for racism. This party is widely known as a neo**** party.

    The democratic party is actually MORE rightwing than this VB while the republican party is so far of the scale that it doesn't compare anymore to european politics. So to leave the extremes out, you have the choice between extreme right, and f'n extreme right. What the republican party stands for currently has literally started 2 world wars in Europe. Take this any way you want but in Europe we're pretty scared of anything that smells of extreme nationalism, pledging to flags, extreme social conservatism (homophobia, against-choice, death penalty, ...) and intervetionism. There is a very specific reason we don't do that anymore because after 2 devastating wars we kinda decided it is not a good political ideology.

  8. #368
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    MV, I totally agree that it's often the candidates / representatives that cause the problems. And I also realize I absolutely over-simplified the situations. When I said "predominantly a Republican position," I meant elected officials.

    The issue with corporate taxes as you describe on the Republican side isn't so much the tax rate, but the fact that there are so many ways for these companies to reduce or eliminate what they actually have to pay in taxes. So, while the rate may be high, many of the biggest-earning companies pay little to no tax each year.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixedVariety View Post
    Just what do the Republicans stand for, that's such a hard pill to swallow? What do the Democrats stand for that's easier to swallow? Pray enlighten me, and leave the extremes out of it.
    The succeed or perish mentality, the kind of economic Darwinism they seem to embrace. Basically, I see republicans as wanting a system where economic growth and world power is the most important, and things like taking care of the poor (the 50%) is holding them back.

    Of course, if you go ahead and say that, you have poor people voting against you. You can't afford to lose that 50% in elections, so republicans have to find ways to get the poor people vote even though it's against the poor people's best interest.

    Perfect example is lying about Obamacare so poor people would be against it. I can understand rich or wealthy people not wanting to pay for universal healthcare if they can afford their own, but no poor person in their right mind would want to give up their universal healthcare.

    And before someone calls me Godwin or something, I don't mean it like that. Once can be an economic and military power without abusing it, policing the world yet also trying to help the world become democratic and all.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDarken View Post
    - Anyone who opposes universal healthcare
    - Anyone who (still) favors lower taxes for wealthy
    - Supporters of SOPA / whatever else ($$$$$)
    I see all that as wanting money to flow upwards, which in turn "in theory" could work to strenghten the US's position in the world. However, I don't actually think this is as beneficial as some others claim, but I at least see it as a defensible position until science proves you otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by MixedVariety View Post
    The truth is that there are good points to be made on both sides.
    This. But I think a lot of those good points are things people like to bring up as conflictual, but are things just about anybody would agree on.

    I mean, who would be against reducing government wasted spending (aside from the gov employees that depend on that wasted spending)?
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  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post

    This. But I think a lot of those good points are things people like to bring up as conflictual, but are things just about anybody would agree on.
    That is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Really in a nutshell, most people want the best that both Democrats and Republicans have to offer. Very few people are actually aligned with all the beliefs of one party and none of the other. The media in all its glory, however, would have you believe otherwise.

    If I were to say that I oppose Obamacare (and I do), I'd be auto-branded as a Republican. I am not opposed to universal health care, though; I just happen to think Obamacare as it stands, is flawed and will end up costing the taxpayer a lot more money in the long run. It needs to be revamped. Other countries have been successful with socialized medicine and we need to look at some of those systems; I would be willing to pay more taxes for a program that actually works.

    If I were to say that I'm pro-choice (which I grudgingly must say I am), I would be auto-branded a Democrat (though there are pro-life Democrats as well). I don't like the idea of abortion, not at all...but I do think nobody should be able to tell a woman what she does with her body.

    Those are just two examples in my own case. Am I a Republican or a Democrat? Most people I know have the same kind of pros/cons when it comes to any issue. I would have to say that in the next election, I'm leaning toward Republican, only because I believe spending must be vastly curtailed before we can even consider improving the status of the nation, and I don't believe Democrats have gotten the picture yet regarding fiscal responsibility and frugality. But I'm not impressed with any of the Republican candidates so far, and may end up voting Democrat after all.
    mv

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