2012 US Presidential Election

[Zalis]

I don't remember seeing or hearing Obama doing a blunder like this.

I didn't say that either.

(?)

For myself, at least, "other politicians" is not a code word for Obama. He's been mostly diplomatic about saying how it's a tough moral issue, etc. I think the main thing specific to Obama on that is how he voted to terminate Illinois babies who survived late term abortions.

[Alaris]

I didn't say that either.

Your silence is deafening sometimes. When making claims saying that "meh all politicians lack compassion and are generally jerks" you should learn to follow that up with "unlike Obama". Because otherwise you sound like you're excusing his faults as "it comes with the trade".

I think the main thing specific to Obama on that is how he voted to terminate Illinois babies who survived late term abortions.

That's what J would have said. Except you said it diplomatically, so hopefully we can have a conversation.

When you read up on it as I did when I first heard J harp on that issue, it's actually quite a different picture.

The existing legislation already said that doctors must provide supportive care to babies who survived late term abortions alive, if doctors thought the babies had a chance at survival.

What Obama opposed was to change the law in a way that didn't actually change how those cases were handled, but introduced terminology that he feared could then be used as backdoor into making abortions illegal.

Nowhere did Obama actually do anything that would increase the chance of babies dying compared to status quo, as opposed to your statement above. You might have to unplug from Fox News a moment and dig the sources if you want confirmation of this.

[RD]

That goes for both Obama and Romney btw, as well as for every top-level politician in any country ever. Ever.

Definitely disagree. Obama hasn't been outwardly supportive on same-sex marriage until recently, but it seemed more than genuine to me. He didn't just say "I'm pro *** marriage," he published a letter about his feelings on it. Maybe the timing of it is strategic, but that doesn't matter TOO much.

I'm really happy with Obama. He's not perfect, of course, but I think he's doing a good job, moving the needle in the right direction as much as he can (especially considering all the blocks he's been faced with). One thing I will say is that the ad Alaris posted disappoints me. One of the things I liked most about Obama was that he didn't stoop to typical political ad campaigns.

...and she's right. His reported comment was callous. Perhaps I've been inarticulate, but I'm just not seeing that I'm arguing against that. I just wasn't as shocked as RD, is all. Call me politically jaded to not think that other politicians would say similar things.

I'm not shocked; I'm disgusted. And that was really my point in my first response to you: Your religion is all about compassion; that was Jesus' number one attribute (that and his bangin' abs). Romney's comments (if true) are not only not compassionate, but are heartless. You just seemed very dismissive about it that is what surprised me.

[Zalis]

Your silence is deafening sometimes. When making claims saying that "meh all politicians lack compassion and are generally jerks" you should learn to follow that up with "unlike Obama". Because otherwise you sound like you're excusing his faults as "it comes with the trade".

I think it tends to come with the trade, but I don't know why I have to specifically single Obama out either way. He plays his PR well and is a great orator, but I'm not about to think that he's some magical exception to having vested interests.

What Obama opposed was to change the law in a way that didn't actually change how those cases were handled, but introduced terminology that he feared could then be used as backdoor into making abortions illegal. ... Nowhere did Obama actually do anything that would increase the chance of babies dying compared to status quo, as opposed to your statement above.

Okay, I'll look into it. While it sounds less heartless that way, it doesn't magically make me agree with his abortion stance. Plus, anything short of being against partial-birth/late-term abortions is pretty hard for me to stomach.

You might have to unplug from Fox News a moment and dig the sources if you want confirmation of this.

I don't watch Fox News (or MSNBC) and it wasn't my source for finding that, so I'll ignore that slight dig. Perhaps you mean the claim originated from there. Either way, yay for political threads.

I'm not shocked; I'm disgusted. And that was really my point in my first response to you: Your religion is all about compassion; that was Jesus' number one attribute (that and his bangin' abs). Romney's comments (if true) are not only not compassionate, but are heartless. You just seemed very dismissive about it that is what surprised me.

Romney is also a Mormon, so it's not like I could even fake total agreement with him. I'm pretty sure this is a lose-lose for me unless I say "Yes, Romney is a horrible, dreadful person who should be hanged/castrated/whatever as punishment for this single statement." If Obama said something off-record that I considered awful during his Illinois term, should I make the same damning kind of judgment? Or would we give him a benefit of the doubt, since it's been how many years? Or at least want him to see if he feels the same way? Maybe I'm showing a bit too much grace here, but I think that kind of response is unproductive and similarly wrong-headed. It favors demonization, ridicule and polarization instead of dialogue. Attitudes like that are why I think Dan Savage comes off as a complete jerk for some of the things he says.

But yay again for tolerance, because it means being civil in spite of even large points of ideological disagreement. Jesus showed enormous compassion, but that doesn't mean he was an enabler of sin. I continually point to the woman caught in sin, where he said "Go and sin no more."

[RD]

Romney is also a Mormon, so it's not like I could even fake total agreement with him. I'm pretty sure this is a lose-lose for me unless I say "Yes, Romney is a horrible, dreadful person who should be hanged/castrated/whatever as punishment for this single statement." Maybe I'm showing a bit too much grace here, but I think that kind of response is unproductive and similarly wrong-headed. It favors demonization, ridicule and polarization instead of dialogue. Attitudes like that are why I think Dan Savage comes off as a complete jerk for some of the things he says.

I didn't say you should demonize or 100% agree with him.

[Alaris]

One thing I will say is that the ad Alaris posted disappoints me. One of the things I liked most about Obama was that he didn't stoop to typical political ad campaigns.

I liked that about him as well, but hey, I think his ad actually is quite valid.

So I guess I am conflicted. I like Obama's old ad campaign, but in this particular case I also like the new ad against Romney (the one about him outsourcing jobs).

The flip-flop ad was not by Obama, just in case.

I think it tends to come with the trade, but I don't know why I have to specifically single Obama out either way. He plays his PR well and is a great orator, but I'm not about to think that he's some magical exception to having vested interests.

I just mean that you should try to see the pros and cons of given candidates. I think it's clear that Obama wins flat out as being the choice for diplomacy. Whether he has vested interests is a different matter, I am not trying to diminish that.

Okay, I'll look into it. While it sounds less heartless that way, it doesn't magically make me agree with his abortion stance. Plus, anything short of being against partial-birth/late-term abortions is pretty hard for me to stomach.

I just don't like it when people vote based on false information.

I don't watch Fox News (or MSNBC) and it wasn't my source for finding that, so I'll ignore that slight dig. Yay for political threads.

Hahah well then, I don't know your source, I was taking a jab at Fox News rather than you. I really don't like Fox News... it actually is a conservative propaganda machine.

As opposed to say, the new Batman movie being so-called "created by the liberal propaganda propaganda machine against Romney" as Rush would have us believe.

[Смерть]

Bane while not spelled the same as Baine, sounds totally the same -- why are we even talking about it anymore, it's fact!

...

My state is allowing people to register to vote via Facebook App -- hopefully it reaches a lot of people who would not have registered otherwise.

[Zalis]

As opposed to say, the new Batman movie being so-called "created by the liberal propaganda propaganda machine against Romney" as Rush would have us believe.

I didn't know what you meant until CMEPTb spelled it out. That's both sad and hilarious.

[Alaris]

I didn't know what you meant until CMEPTb spelled it out. That's both sad and hilarious.

Yes, I facepalm whenever I see that kind of logic being spewed by adults attempting to convince their audience. I facepalm harder when it works.

Politics gives me headaches.

[Смерть]

Yeah, rhetoric can be a real bane.