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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manwithtwohands View Post
    Backlash is also coming from being the end of a series of pretty long games.
    The more invested people get into it all, the more they feel it should count towards something in the end.
    My understanding, though, is that people aren't so much concerned with how it ended, so much as that there is only really one possible outcome for the ending with only minor differences.

  2. #62
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    I think there would be a lot less complaints if that one ending had actually been any good.
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  3. #63
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    If that ending is not what Bioware really intended for whatever reason, and wishes to change it... that is their right.

    It is NOT your right as the player to demand it.

    (Now, if Bioware really wants to infuriate me, I'd love to see them try to charge the customer a DLC charge for any updated ending they produce... which I suspect they will try).

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by chemiclord View Post
    (Now, if Bioware really wants to infuriate me, I'd love to see them try to charge the customer a DLC charge for any updated ending they produce... which I suspect they will try).
    That is not your right to demand. Actually, it was probably their plan all along, according to some people, and Bioware has the full right to do this and you don't have the right to demand any other way. Pay the fee like everyone else, or don't pay it.

    Because you know, you forfeited your right when you told all of us we couldn't complain about it and ask they fix it.

    -----

    Funny that if a game bugs, we can ask to fix it. But if it's art (even crappy one) then it's protected by the magic shield of "vision" and "artistic integrity".

    I call BS on that. Artistic integrity applies to actual good work that deviates from the norm or accepted standard, not to crappy work that everyone and their dog agrees is low quality and has little to no redeeming value. If an artist makes a message that we find unpleasant, that message needs protection. If an artist makes a doodle and calls it art, then it's a different story. In the case of ME3, it seems that the ending was simply low quality hence not protected as a different vision.

    And yes, I don't consider a pile of garbage as "art" as some pseudo-intellectuals seem to think. Just because there's a subjective component on art doesn't mean we should throw objectivity out the window.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Funny that if a game bugs, we can ask to fix it. But if it's art (even crappy one) then it's protected by the magic shield of "vision" and "artistic integrity".

    I call BS on that. Artistic integrity applies to actual good work that deviates from the norm or accepted standard, not to crappy work that everyone and their dog agrees is low quality and has little to no redeeming value. If an artist makes a message that we find unpleasant, that message needs protection. If an artist makes a doodle and calls it art, then it's a different story. In the case of ME3, it seems that the ending was simply low quality hence not protected as a different vision.

    And yes, I don't consider a pile of garbage as "art" as some pseudo-intellectuals seem to think. Just because there's a subjective component on art doesn't mean we should throw objectivity out the window.
    EXACTLY! That was the point I was trying to get across. See, if I watch a movie, and I don't like the ending. I don't have the right to demand the ending to be changed.

    But what if the final scene of the movie is just a paper doodle where a cool scene should have been, and the movie just cuts to credits? If I am passionate about the movie, I have the right to demand a proper ending instead of a silly doodle.

    Mass Effect's 3 ending was low quality. It wasn't on par with anything in any of the three Mass Effect games from a storytelling point of view. There's also the missing element of a result to the choices you've made so far. That is what the Mass Effect games were all about: Difficult choices and the consequences from those choices in the ending or the next game. But that is missing with ME3's ending. It didn't lead up to anything, while everything indicates that that was the original plan of the writers: To have a meaningful result to your choices in ME1 and 2.

    I could have some understanding for the fact that a final boss battle is missing, if the ending did something with my choices. But none of the things you would expect from any Mass Effect ending were there.

    Additionally, it is part 3 in the franchise. When ever you make sequels to a game, you tend to add things that improve over the original game. There's no point in making a Mass Effect 2, if it doesn't improve on Mass Effect 1. And there is no point to making a Mass Effect 3, if it's ending isn't even close to anything in Mass Effect 1. It is like they went backwards, or simply cut things for time. I think much of the combat is ME3 is certainly an improvement over the combat in the other games. The conversations and interactions are debatable... they are different at least. The Renegade/Paragon system is not quite as good as in any of the other games. But the ending... it doesn't even come close to what they pulled in Mass Effect 1. It can't even stand in its shadow. And keep in mind, Mass Effect 1 basically let you choose between saving the council or not. It is not hard to at least do something simular. I applaud ME2 for going beyond that, and making the entire final mission a long chain of impactful choices.

    ME3's ending doesn't have to be as good as ME2's ending. But it should be atleast as good as ME1's ending, or close to it. Otherwise, what is the point of having a third game?

    I realise this is a slippery slope, since plenty of game franchises degrade as more sequels are released (Soul Calibur comes to mind). And I wouldn't demand a game like Soul Calibur 5 to be changed, and have at least mechanics as decent as Soul Blade (the original game). But then we are discussing changing the fundamental design of the game itself, which is impossible after release. But ME3 is not such a case. They only dropped the ball on the ending, which is something that is not beyond saving in my opinion. It would be such a shame to end a great game trilogy with such a poor attempt at an ending. If there is any possibility for Bioware to go back and fix it, I think fans have the right to ask for it.
    Last edited by Rob Van Der Sloot; 22-03-2012 at 21:12.

  6. #66
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    Matrix 3 was kinda bad, and the ending disagreed with me. But I call artistic integrity on that one. They had a vision, I think it was bad, but they can nevertheless tell me why it was good and we can disagree but I can see what they were going for. And I respect that. I'd still want a rewrite, but I would never demand it as my right.

    Saw series started strong (in my opinion) and though quality degraded at some point onward, they kept to what made the series interesting. One thing I liked is that the stories of the characters (those who lived anyway) were quite intertwined, and that kept true to the end. Like or don't like the series, they were at least consistent in the writing all until the very end.

    Even the Alien series went down, but in a way you can claim artistic integrity. The revival of Ripley after her death, ok it was kinda ridiculous, but they had a vision and went with it. It didn't work too well, but it was consistent and could have worked, and I call artistic integrity here too. There were some cool things about the alien-Ripley hybrid idea, even though people didn't buy into it, there is no place to demand rewrite there.

    And let's face it, for the most part, we are also fine with plot holes in series where plot isn't the strong suit anyway, and/or the plot holes are small enough. But the plot was a strong suit of Mass Effect up until ME3 ending, which is why there is so much backlash. It's like if they suddenly decided to make the Diablo 3 end boss turn-based using a text interface.

    And yet, there was a small text adventure in the story of Saints Row 3, and it worked wonderfully in that context.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    That is not your right to demand. Actually, it was probably their plan all along, according to some people, and Bioware has the full right to do this and you don't have the right to demand any other way. Pay the fee like everyone else, or don't pay it.

    Because you know, you forfeited your right when you told all of us we couldn't complain about it and ask they fix it.
    Did I say I'd demand it for free? No. I said I'd be infuriated, and I wouldn't buy it.

    So... I'd do exactly what I tell people to do. Sorry. Wrong bait. Try again.


    Funny that if a game bugs, we can ask to fix it. But if it's art (even crappy one) then it's protected by the magic shield of "vision" and "artistic integrity".

    I call BS on that. Artistic integrity applies to actual good work that deviates from the norm or accepted standard, not to crappy work that everyone and their dog agrees is low quality and has little to no redeeming value. If an artist makes a message that we find unpleasant, that message needs protection. If an artist makes a doodle and calls it art, then it's a different story. In the case of ME3, it seems that the ending was simply low quality hence not protected as a different vision.

    And yes, I don't consider a pile of garbage as "art" as some pseudo-intellectuals seem to think. Just because there's a subjective component on art doesn't mean we should throw objectivity out the window.
    The difference that you don't want to acknowledge here is that a bug is something that happens without the creator's intent. The creator would WANT to fix it because it is not what the company wants.

    As far as I am aware, this is the ending Bioware chose to run with. That ending is their intent. If they want to change it, that is their call. It is not yours.

    A bug =/= ending, no matter how much you want to draw that analogy.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Van Der Sloot View Post
    I have the right to demand a proper ending instead of a silly doodle.

    If there is any possibility for Bioware to go back and fix it, I think fans have the right to ask for it.
    I agree with pretty much everything you have said except these two sentences.

    No, you DON'T have the right. If that "silly doodle" is what the creator decided to give you for an ending, that's what you get. You can hate it, rage against it, tell all your friends not to buy that work, make long winded rants about how much it sucks... but you do NOT have the right to tell the creator to change it.

  9. #69
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    As a bit of an olive branch here;

    I understand that I have been rather combative on this topic. This is something I feel very strongly about (and such things are very few). As a writer myself, my creative intent trumps all criticism. If a fan were to come to me and make demands I change my work because he/she didn't like it... I'd probably not so gently tell them just where they can violate themselves with a broom handle.

    I have little problem with much of what has been said here, with notable exceptions that may just be the result of misunderstanding. I do have a problem with upset fans trying to drag the Federal Trade Commission into a matter of artistic expression, and I have a problem with people who seem to think that is something that should be acceptable. If you are not one of that number, then I have no quarrel with you.

  10. #70
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    PS: try not to double- or triple-post, we frown on that. You can use the edit button to add more.

    Now, I know you feel strongly about not changing the ending (or any part of) your work, but consider this. What if your editor asks you to change it?

    Or what if they tell you something that you yourself think would make the ending better. What if you were not satisfied with the ending you wrote and actually thought their ending might improve it quite a bit?

    Or what if you wrote what you knew was a bad ending because you had to submit your work on deadline, and now, a few years later, you are given the opportunity to revise your work and change the ending.
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