The GW2 Mesmer: A critical reflection after BWE1

[RD]

To try and clarify, there's a difference between an interrupt skill, and an interrupt role. In GW1 terms, your role is sort-of defined by how many skills of one type you have. You have mostly healing skills, you are a healer. You have mostly interrupt skills, you are an interrupter.

Yes, this. Thank you.

[teina]

Not sure if this is directed at me, but if it is, just because you can interrupt something doesn't mean it is an "interrupt" in the GW 1 sense. To repeat myself, I don't think the GW 2 Mesmer is bad or that anyone who likes it is wrong. I just personally like GW 1 Mesmer a lot and, as a result, dislike the GW 2 Mesmer.

Anyway, my Hammer War in gw 2 can interrupt with knockdowns and stuff, but that doesn't mean it is a function of his class, like it was for Mesmer in GW 1. That iswhat I meant.

Exactly. There's a feel to the playstyle of GW1 Mesmer that is not in the GW2 version. One can justify all they want based on skill descriptions and such, but GW1 Mesmer is more than just interrupt and empathy/backfire. A couple of examples:

In GW1, Rangers can also interrupt and degen in the form of conditions. Yet there is a distinct feel to the Ranger compared to the Mesmer. Many Mesmer players dislike the lack of immediacy (arrow flight time) and lack of certainty (dodged arrows) of Rangers. To me, the GW2 mesmer is no more the GW1 Mesmer as the GW1 Ranger is the GW1 Mesmer.

In GW2, guardians have heals and protection skills. But I would not consider them GW1 Monks. Just because they share similar skill effects does not make them play the same way. To me, that's the biggest difference between GW2 mesmer and GW1 Mesmer. They don't play the same.

-T

[Fluffball]

I still think the GW2 mesmer can specialize fairly well into shutdown, but at this point we're debating shades of gray based on very little play experience. We can count how many shutdown skills GW2 mesmers have to pick from or can bring on a single build, that would be a start.

I got curious so I peaked at the wiki. It seems mesmers are VERY interrupt and shutdown oriented compared to the 4 classes I made in BWE.

Interrupts
Trick Shot - Daze, blind and stun
Signet of Domination - Stun
Diversion - Daze
Mantra of Distraction - Daze
Desperate Daze downed skill - Daze


Apply Random Conditions (chance for interrupts and shutdowns)
Debilitating Dissipation
Chaotic Interruption
Chaos Armor
Chaos Storm
Winds of Chaos

And then a lot of traits which increase the effectiveness of shutdowns and interrupts.

I imagine I missed some stuff, since I have no experience playing a GW2 mesmer.

Also finally, I am not participating in the debate in any way other than to say it is factually false that mesmers don't have interrupts. They quite clearly do and a lot of them as well. As to what their "feel" is, I have no opinion.

[Alaris]

If I wanted to play an interrupt mesmer, I'd probably run this build:
http://gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/...bobuccchd1e5ks

Keep in mind that confusion = old empathy, daze & stun interrupt, and clones are hexes that make you miss, blind makes you miss too...

F1 - AoE damage
F2 - empathy
F3 - interrupt (instant if melee clone, with delay otherwise)
F4 - self-protect

Scepter / torch
1 - clone each 3 attacks
2 - block => clone, then blind
3 - empathy
4 - blind + AoE fire
5 - empathy-applying phantasm

Sword + pistol
1 - stack vulnerability
2 - attack + defense
3 - leap + cripple + clone
4 - damage phantasm
5 - interrupt 2 foes, blind the third

6 - self-heal
7 - active to interrupt
8 - interrupt
9 - phantasm that removes enchantments from foes
10 - Moa

Totals (number of skills that do given effects):
3 empathy
4 interrupt
3 blind (pre-interrupt)
3 clone
3 phantasm

Major traits
1 to add daze to stun (50%)
4 to add effects when interrupting (damage & fury & random condition & random boon)
1 to cloak & clone at low health
1 for faster recharge of phantasms

[teina]

I got curious so I peaked at the wiki. It seems mesmers are VERY interrupt and shutdown oriented compared to the 4 classes I made in BWE.

Not picking on you, Fluffball, just using your post to expand more on the whole gameplay feel:

Trick Shot - Daze, blind and stun

Slow and possible to miss, more like GW1 Ranger interrupt than Mesmer.

Diversion - Daze

Clone/Phantom destruction dependant, thus slow and not dependable for interrupting key skills.

Desperate Daze downed skill - Daze

Downed state, so special case.

Apply Random Conditions (chance for interrupts and shutdowns)

Random, so not dependable.

Signet of Domination - Stun
Mantra of Distraction - Daze

These two are the only skills that are possibly close to the GW1 Mesmer interrupts (but see below).

Also finally, I am not participating in the debate in any way other than to say it is factually false that mesmers don't have interrupts. They quite clearly do and a lot of them as well.

Note that interrupts in GW2 is already different than interrupts in GW1. By design, they moved away from ping dependency and shutdown, which were major features of GW1 Mesmer.

He took rupts examples on the matter. Dshots, pblocks, pleaks winning matches happens often, but the lambda player is likely to miss them. Considering the rupts are entirely ping-dependant, you're left with a system quite competition-unfriendly.

Their importance in GW2's shutdown are therefore gonna be reduced and, quite obviously, is pictured by the lack of enemies cast bar (at least in the demo). Instead of that, Izzy would like to see skills like Shield Bash. In GW2, this skill is highly graphic, very easy to understand and can serve a lot of functions: speed boost, blocking and KD.

By design, they de-emphasized shutdown, the bread-and-butter of GW1 Mesmer. Whether this is good for the game is up for discussion, but GW2 mesmer is not the GW1 Mesmer.

-T

[Fluffball]

Thief may be more up your alley if you want total shutdown. The dazing skill I mentioned before can be used three times in a row since there is no cool down. In addition, there are a plethora of crippling and blinding skills (which I left out of the mesmer interrupt list, although blind sort of has to be considered a special interrupt.) There is a trait that gives you a chance to cripple with every pistol shot, which is huge. I mean the effect of that is, not the percentage chance.

If I was fighting pure melee, I would just perma-blind them until they were dead and not even bother moving.

Still, once you factor in the dozen or so ways that you can shut down a foe (several or most conditions, punishment for taking action, interrupting, etc.), mesmer is definitely a shutdown class.

[RD]

Lol I actually almost wrote the exact same post as Teina, but didn't want to look like I was trying to prove anyone wrong or anything haha

In addition to the above, there's also the potential delay involved in using clones instead of a direct skill to interrupt, plus the uncertainty with skills like Trick Shot and Chaos Storm (ie. Will the right condition land on the right target). In that case, my warrior can potentially interrupt faster.

Again, the point isn't that Mesmers can't do anything or even that one version is better. The point is that they're different and some of us prefer the old version.

Tapatalk'd

[Alaris]

In the build I posted above, there are skills that interrupt without using clones. In fact, out of 4 interrupts and 3 blinds, only one relies on clones (the shatter). Also, the build produces melee clones, so shattering those should interrupt right away most of the times. And 4 traits dependent on interrupting, that's a lot of traits!

But yeah, there are differences and I guess as long as you recognize the similarities, if the gameplay doesn't speak to you then you shouldn't force yourself to like it. I for one spent most of my time on ranger in GW1, and despite the similarities, ranger ranks low in GW2.

[EnoughAlready]

I don't see why you are jumping on Alaris for sharing articles that quintus asked him to...

Tapatalk'd

I wasn't jumping on them for that, I was jumping on the attitude that they were here 'explaining the misunderstood Mesmer', the assumption of their own correctness, and that anyone who disagrees being 'wrong', that was evidenced by the tone of their post.

1) Well, I accept that some people will see it that way and consider it's worth it if some people get to enjoy a profession they otherwise would have dropped too early because of misjudging the profession.

See also the above. Opinions contrary Alaris own are obviously misjudged, and once others understand properly, they will surely agree that Alaris own view is right, really annoyed me.

2) I'm not trying to convince myself, I like the mesmer as is, it really doesn't matter if it's the GW1 mesmer or not for me. Well, in fact, I like that it's not a copy-paste because the GW1 mesmer was frustrating.

3) I loved the idea of mesmer in GW1, that you could play shutdown. I even liked the times that I did manage to play shutdown well. My problem was mainly that the profession was unforgiving, so it got frustrating at times.

Again, back to my point that people who didn't like the GW1 Mesmer prefer the GW2.

Not sure if this is directed at me, but if it is, just because you can interrupt something doesn't mean it is an "interrupt" in the GW 1 sense. To repeat myself, I don't think the GW 2 Mesmer is bad or that anyone who likes it is wrong. I just personally like GW 1 Mesmer a lot and, as a result, dislike the GW 2 Mesmer.

Anyway, my Hammer War in gw 2 can interrupt with knockdowns and stuff, but that doesn't mean it is a function of his class, like it was for Mesmer in GW 1. That iswhat I meant.

Tapatalk'd

Exactly!
My own opinion is that the GW1 Mesmer was great as it was, and I bemoan the lack of it's traditional skills and role.

The whole GW1 Mesmer and GW2 Mesmer is to cumbersome, I shall henceforth refer to GW2 Mesmer as Minstrel to more readily differentiate.

I wonder if it would be possible to get a petition going for Mesmer interupts and Degen to be resurrected.

[Quintus Antonius]

I don't want to see the GW2 Mesmer go back to being a simple modification of a GW1 Mesmer. I'm okay with the changed nature of gameplay. My main concern is the "chance to apply a random condition". Mesmers are not random. They are calculating, masters of illusion. The Mesmer is a targeted and specialized role, which is why it was so hard to play and a relatively rare class in GW1.

Daze, similarly, is not the same as an interruption. I do agree that the GW2 Mesmer has a role to play as a condition spammer or shutdown caster, but think about the giant epic boss battles where bosses are telegraphing their attacks, dozens of players are zerg rushing, and so on. The Mesmer has a role to play here as a crowd protector by giving us direct and lasting interrupt and shutdown abilities.

Really, the skills they have already given us are probably sufficient. All that needs to happen is they need to add a more intentional interruption and degen focus rather than random conditions or conditions that are more appropriate for a physical attacker than an illusionary one.

I knew I was in trouble when one of my backstories was running away to join the circus...lol