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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnoughAlready View Post
    The changes, as have been delineated over and again, have altered the functionality to such an extent that it isn't the same thing.
    This is less a fact and more an opinion.

    Or rather, it really depends on what your threshold is for classifying something as same or different. And there's no point saying it's gone if it's still there but changed.

    In all the games I played, RPG or not, I can't think of any profession class character or thing that comes closer to the GW1 mesmer than the GW2 mesmer in role function and gameplay. GW1 mesmers were hard to describe as well because shutdown roles are fairly rare in games even in RPGs. Debuff is more common, but shutdown? And mesmers have a variety of ways to shutdown, e.g. e-denial, interrupt, punish, skill failure... I feel GW1 mesmers were truly unique and defining of GW as a game that innovates. GW2 mesmers is the only thing that comes close to it.

    By comparison, the guardian is pretty hard to describe as "it's this or that profession or class" or even "it's a combination of this and that" because even paladins are quite different from guardians in that the former rely on healing allies (or being frontline) and the latter on applying position-based prots (and being frontline). And it's very different from prot monks in that you're hard-shelled and mostly frontline.

    So if you want to play prot monk in GW2, I don't know what to recommend (guardian? water ele?). If you want to play guardian in GW1, I also don't know what to recommend (dervish? prot monk? paragon?). But if you like mesmer in either game, then mesmer is the closest match in the other by far.

    Much like engineer is the closest match to ritualist, you know, aside for the look and lore, and assassin is the closest match to thief, aside for the look and lore and balance.
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  2. #42
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    Just because the GW 2 Mesmer comes closest to GW 1 Mesmer doesn't mean it's the same thing...

    They're different. They can do some of the same things, but the class, like the games themselves, is very different. You've got like four hardcore Mesmers telling you it plays a lot different - trust us lol

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDarken View Post
    You've got like four hardcore Mesmers telling you it plays a lot different - trust us lol
    Yes, it's quite common for experts to adopt very strict definitions that the rest of us find too narrow. That's what I was arguing above, when I tried to go for a more "objective" criteria, one based on what you'd imagine a statistical procedure like cluster analysis would return based on a "profession space" dataset.

    I trust that you perceive the mesmer difference to be huge, in your mesmer-centric world, but reality might be different to alt-a-holics with extensive experience with all (most) professions. Mesmer might not have been my main, but I played it a lot too. Actually, mesmer was my main for a while.

    I work in the domain of perception. I actually specialize on how reality differs from how we perceive it ;)
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  4. #44
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    Just as an interesting tidbit, seven years ago, back when you could not change secondary classes and reconfigurating your stat points was limited, I played a Me/R specializing in bow and Mesmer interrupts. So, I do not speak idly on the matter when it comes to the topic of the new Mesmer seeming similar to a Ranger. Indeed, the new Mesmer's role is most similar to something like a R/Rt Spirit Master Ranger build from GW1. You lay your spirits, keep them alive, and use them to spam conditions and spread damage. That is essentially what the new Mesmer does, and this is why so many of us "hardcore Mesmers", to borrow from RDarken, are upset at the role. Mesmer was all I played in PvE, but I am a ranked PvPer as well, and in that capacity I was very skilled with the Ritualist, which I hope gives me some expertise to talk about all of this.

    We aren't necessarily bemoaning the change in form so much as the change in style. If this new GW2 Mesmer were a spiritual successor to the Mesmer in the same way that many of the other classes are faithfully spiritual successors of their GW1 counterparts, I think I, speaking only for myself, would be more satisfied.

    The Mesmer is not a Ranger, the Mesmer is, to speak somewhat facetiously, an elegant troll. You trolololo the enemy with interrupts and degens. This is possible to a certain degree with clones, but is not yet up to the same level of excellence of form and style as the GW1 Mesmer was. There is a reason the Mesmer was one of the least nerfed classes of GW1, and that speaks to why it needs to be spiritually similar in GW2.

    @Alaris: To respond to your request to critique your build presented earlier in this thread, I'm sorry to say that I cannot right now since I am unable to actually play the game. I would be happy to give it a shot during the next BWE, but until then, I would only be able to give you theory, and not practice. The difference between theory and practice is exactly what is causing the tension in this thread after all, so the concern is not unfounded.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    I do not speak idly on the matter when it comes to the topic of the new Mesmer seeming similar to a Ranger.
    I do not doubt you. Mesmer and interrupt ranger are similar in that capacity and the differences are well known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    Indeed, the new Mesmer's role is most similar to something like a R/Rt Spirit Master Ranger build from GW1. You lay your spirits, keep them alive, and use them to spam conditions and spread damage.
    Well, I am quite a summon aficionado, and I don't see it. It may be because I focus so much on summons that I see small differences and think they are large, much like I accused you of seeing small mesmer differences and making them to be large. I don't know.

    To me, rit spirits are immobile, often support-oriented, and if damage-oriented then not in a punishing way. They also don't die if the target die, and can be pre-summoned. They also can tank to some degree, and do not look like you. I think this makes them quite different from clones and phantasms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    in that capacity I was very skilled with the Ritualist, which I hope gives me some expertise to talk about all of this.
    I don't want expertise to be a requirement for conversation here, that would be elitist. I'm just having fun discussing GW theory with fellow gamers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    We aren't necessarily bemoaning the change in form so much as the change in style. If this new GW2 Mesmer were a spiritual successor to the Mesmer in the same way that many of the other classes are faithfully spiritual successors of their GW1 counterparts, I think I, speaking only for myself, would be more satisfied.
    In my opinion, it is. But that does depend on what you focus on when you define what spiritual successor need... see below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    You trolololo the enemy with interrupts and degens.
    Lack of finesse. That is a valid complaint of the GW2 mesmer as far as I can tell, I did not get a good sense of finesse. Thought that may be lack of experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    This is possible to a certain degree with clones, but is not yet up to the same level of excellence of form and style as the GW1 Mesmer was.
    I agree. See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    There is a reason the Mesmer was one of the least nerfed classes of GW1, and that speaks to why it needs to be spiritually similar in GW2.
    I think it was least nerfed because people either (1) didn't abuse it, or (2) it just wasn't OP to begin with. It got buffed lately but imo more to increase its popularity and flexibility than because it needed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    until then, I would only be able to give you theory, and not practice. The difference between theory and practice is exactly what is causing the tension in this thread after all, so the concern is not unfounded.
    This is all I ask. At least until practice is possible, then I'd be curious to know your updated opinion.

    I'd try it myself in the next BWE, but interrupting was never my strong point.
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  6. #46
    mes was/is the hardest profession in GW1 and as far as Im concerned it should stay that way in GW2....it should frustrate, annoy,require a boatload of patience but ultimately deliver the most rewarding mmo experience of any class period.Not claiming to be an expert but my first ever char was a mes in 2006 and a well played mes is by far and away the most fun to play.Needless to say I jumped straight in with a mes last weekend and I, for one, think its tremendous.Needs a lot of thought and ultimately thats the gig; you need to be a thinker to play a mes so if u dont like thinking then dont play one!!I appreciate the comments above I think they all have some degree of validity but you have to work really really hard with a mes and from what ive seen thus far GW2 takes that to a whole new level and thats fine by me it just makes the whole experience more fun.Also I just perfected cold fusion in my kitchen(again)if anyone cares.

  7. #47
    I think it's worth pointing out that not one single person in this thread has a goddam clue what we're talking about and has basically zero experience playing both GW2 and the mesmer.

    I probably made it further than most people in the BWE in that I wound up doing a level 30 dungeon. The evolution of my thief was dramatic, from a level one pure damage deer-stabber to a team-supporting character capable of interrupting, protting and applying a bevvy of conditions. The game play changed quite a lot.

    That was a riff on realHarken's comment of thinking the mesmer seems very complex, which there is certainly no denying. We haven't scratched the surface, and that's pretty cool.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Well, I am quite a summon aficionado, and I don't see it. It may be because I focus so much on summons that I see small differences and think they are large, much like I accused you of seeing small mesmer differences and making them to be large. I don't know.

    To me, rit spirits are immobile, often support-oriented, and if damage-oriented then not in a punishing way. They also don't die if the target die, and can be pre-summoned. They also can tank to some degree, and do not look like you. I think this makes them quite different from clones and phantasms.
    A valid critique. The two are not the same, and I did not mean to say there is a 1:1 translation. However, you have to recognize the similarities. A good Spirit Spammer did not stay stationary, but move around placing spirits, just as a GW2 Mesmer must move constantly while managing the movement of the clones as to both maximize effect and minimize detection. There may be a different in ontology between the two, but I'd argue the telos is quite similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    I don't want expertise to be a requirement for conversation here, that would be elitist. I'm just having fun discussing GW theory with fellow gamers.
    Is it elitist to want your surgeon/car mechanic/contractor/etc to be qualified to work in their field? Of course not. While not a requirement for good conversation, expertise is a crucial part of the feedback process that will make the new Mesmer the best it can be. Elitism would be thinking only those who share my expertise have a right to speak, or supposing ANet must make the class to suit solely my concerns. But expertise should be something that adds weight to an argument that seeks to base itself on fact and experience. The expertise of the Mesmers here is exactly why this kind of critical reflection is needed after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    This is all I ask. At least until practice is possible, then I'd be curious to know your updated opinion.

    I'd try it myself in the next BWE, but interrupting was never my strong point.
    I can't give you an informed opinion so I would prefer to give no opinion. I hope you understand. Even if the Mesmer is not overhauled like some of us would like, by the next BWE, all those skills will have been changed in some way, so I see very little point in speculating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffball View Post
    That was a riff on realHarken's comment of thinking the mesmer seems very complex, which there is certainly no denying. We haven't scratched the surface, and that's pretty cool.
    Valid. I'd actually be disappointed if the scrapped the Mesmer we saw and just gave us the same old GW1 Mesmer. I hope no one here is advocating for that!
    Last edited by Quintus Antonius; 03-05-2012 at 01:28.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    I did not mean to say there is a 1:1 translation. However, you have to recognize the similarities. A good Spirit Spammer did not stay stationary, but move around placing spirits
    I did not take it as 1:1 similarity either, but imo the similarities are few and the differences are many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    Is it elitist to want your surgeon/car mechanic/contractor/etc to be qualified to work in their field? Of course not.
    Perhaps then we should leave it to ANet? They're the ones who made many great games, and are making a really good one again!

    We're just playing it!

    Seriously though, an opinion is valid regardless as an opinion, but nothing more. If you then want to dabble in facts, then expertise helps only insofar as knowing the facts does. Whether you got the facts via experience or understanding is less relevant...

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    so I see very little point in speculating.
    Other than for speculation's sake? Theorycrafting? That is a minigame in itself actually, I quite enjoy it and seeing how close I can get to reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    Valid. I'd actually be disappointed if the scrapped the Mesmer we saw and just gave us the same old GW1 Mesmer. I hope no one here is advocating for that!
    It would go from top 4 to bottom 3 for me.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius View Post
    Valid. I'd actually be disappointed if the scrapped the Mesmer we saw and just gave us the same old GW1 Mesmer. I hope no one here is advocating for that!
    I don't think GW 1 Mesmer would even work. Interrupts maybe, but hexes and stuff wouldn't. Normal mobs die way too fast to even bother with DoTs; that's probably why stuff like Bleeding has such a short duration. It would be fine in PvP or against boss mobs, but in everyday PvE, Mesmers would end up contributing so little.

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