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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by satenia View Post
    I find that strange. In GW2 the areas had a quite clear level indicator. Outlevel the area and you get downgraded, proceed too far and you'll likely get killed. So you look what's available in the area corresponding to your level, then move on to the next. This didn't always work smooth either, there was some time (around lvl 16 I think) where the transition from one area to the other simply didn't scale well. So I ended up grinding (someone fetch harniq a pill) some world events.
    <snip>

    Actually, diving with snorkel and trying to breath would result in swallowing plenty of water (I'm diving, so I couldn't resist ).
    You should give ANet some leeway. It was only a beta and things were still out of kilter.


    And shouldn't your snorking stay above the water level?


    (talking about diving: the idea of ANet of giving people a breather underwater was simply a stroke of genius...)
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Rhonwyn View Post
    You should give ANet some leeway. It was only a beta and things were still out of kilter.
    Shawn is gonna kill some kittens

    But on a more serious note, I'm aware that the areas still need some tweaking, I was simply pointing out that you can't just wander around aimlessly as some posters claim, you are still following a rather strict line (area vs leveling curve).


    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Rhonwyn View Post
    And shouldn't your snorking stay above the water level?
    It usually does when snorkeling, not so much when diving

  3. #23
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    When critiquing GW2, at least get your facts straight. It makes you sound prejudiced otherwise.
    1) Most content can be done solo or not. Most solo content involves NPC allies even if you solo.
    2) Personal story often involves groups attacking you rather than solo foes. In fact, 1vs1 is very rare.
    3) Hearts offer choice in how you contribute, so do many dynamic events.

    WoW bashing on my part is based on:

    1) Combat is boring:
    1-1) No dodge, no reason to move while casting except for rare exceptions.
    1-2) Lack of cooperation outside teaming (due to kill steal, resource steal, etc)
    1-3) Trinity or GTFO
    1-4) Rotation, it's combat made boring.

    2) Quests are boring
    2-1) Quests have only one way in which you can complete them.
    2-2) Static persistent areas, which for me is less about whether the area changes, and more about mobs just standing there waiting for you to attack
    2-3) Outside of quests, there really isn't much you could do to level up. (Dungeon finder is a new addition)
    2-4) With quest chains, you can't skip quests. You have to kill 10 rats and collect dust if you want to kill the rat king.

    3) The game is grindy as hell, which is OK except that
    3-1) Endgame =/= the game, therefore you want to get to endgame
    3-2) Wastes time with lack of map travel, and so much required traveling
    3-3) The game is boring (see 1 & 2)

    I think GW2 differs a lot on those aspects. Even if you factor in that some items are subjective or opinion-based, I think I have very valid personal reasons to not invest 15$ in a WoW sub and spend a lot on GW2 instead.
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  4. #24
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    This video is the best example of how the heart quests can be so ANTI-grind. Just watch the first half really...



    They are fighting stuff, fall in a hole, continue killing stuff, and next thing they know, their renown heart is finished. They even comment on it. They were just simply fighting their way out (with or without the girl), and completed the heart without realizing it.

    Yes, the idea of the hearts scattered about are all basically the same. But they only become grind if you MAKE them grind. Another one that I found kinda fun was the orchard in Queensdale. You kill spiders and a do a few other things. However, sometimes, the one guy starts asking for apples. Now, some spiders "drop" apples, and some trees will drop apples when you attack them. However, some of the trees drop higher leveled spiders. If you kill them, they will "drop" an apple AND count towards the renown heart.

    It's not like the hearts are as simple as go kill x, fix y, and prevent z. Some dynamic events in the same area will contribute to the heart. Sure, you could kill x, fix y, and/or prevent z, or you could partake in the DE, finishing both the DE and the heart.

    I see GW2 as a game that enables you to make it as grindy as you want it to be. You don't want grind? Multitask as much as possible. You want to grind like you've never grinded (ground?) before? Go ahead, stick to doing only one of killing x, fixing y, or preventing z.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterNightfall View Post
    “But MNF, what about the personal story quests?”

    While they are similar to the original GW missions - and do throw in a bit of enemy variety your way, there’s a more pressing problem with them. Specifically, the fact that you can’t fail one. You can wipe as often as you want - you will just revive at the start of the dungeon, and can keep fighting. They carry no notion of failure - only one of a varying repair bill. At worst, all it takes to get through them is... A sufficient amount of grind - which is ironic, considering that repetitive, grindy gameplay is something this community is very happy to attack other MMOs on.
    Honest question: What did you expect/hope for?
    Complete failure, restart current section of the storyline? Harsh, for a game that wants to be casual-friendly.
    A secondary "failure" success option? Preferably, but much more work, unless you merely give it lip service (as in, put in an extra sentence - I think SWTOR does this to simulate choice in your responses).

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberman View Post
    Honest question: What did you expect/hope for?
    Complete failure, restart current section of the storyline? Harsh, for a game that wants to be casual-friendly.
    A secondary "failure" success option? Preferably, but much more work, unless you merely give it lip service (as in, put in an extra sentence - I think SWTOR does this to simulate choice in your responses).
    Since there's no meaningful death penalty, the most reasonable failure mode, would probably be tossing you out of the instance when your armor breaks. Then again, since you can swap fresh pieces in, I suppose that wouldn't work, either. A.Net pretty much painted themselves into a corner, here.

    The problem isn't that you can get through them by grinding gold - the problem is that they aren't as engaging GW1 missions - one of the reasons as for why, is that you can't fail them. Fairly generic mobs is the other.

    Actually, come to think of it, optional, bonus objectives that are possible to fail would do a world of good for them. (Think GW1 bonus objectives. Now, imagine if going for the bonus still had a risk of failing the bonus, but wouldn't wipe your party.)

    On the subject of renown hearts - here's a few things to point out:
    And I'd like to point out that renown hearts are far from optional. I was participating in every world event that I could, keeping up with the personal story, and clearing every renown heart - only to find myself consistently two levels behind. Leveling without them is really not an option.

    Either way, the problem is not that they exist, or solely that that one differs little from another. The problem, is that the combat aspect of them is... Quite bland. Mostly due to lack of enemy variety.

    To Arena.net's credit, the player character's side of combat is done well. The punching bags we're laying into are not nearly as interesting - and after you've wailed away at a few hundred of them, it shows.

    At the end of the day, I can't really see myself recommending the game to anyone who finds the MMO formula of "Hit 1-9 in sequence to kill a few thousand bland enemies with progressively bigger numbers next to their names." As is, the game's PvE is aiming to be "WoW/Kotor/Rift/Tera without monthly fees."

    On a bright side, the skill point mini-quests work fairly well. As does the out-of-combat regen.
    Last edited by MasterNightfall; 04-05-2012 at 04:11.

  7. #27
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    I love how there is actually people on these forums that agree with you. On the beta forms people would be in denial. Their love for this game ifs fueled by their hate for WOW. Any comparison to it will start a flame war. I agree with you but i already payed for this and I'm tired of WOW. It was a great game for most of the 4 years that I played it and i don't inexplicably hate it just cause Arena Net tells me to. In the end i just can't help but feel that this game has greatness buried down deep somewhere and maybe its a bit early to judge. For all I know it could still be 6 months from release.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterNightfall View Post
    Actually, come to think of it, optional, bonus objectives that are possible to fail would do a world of good for them. (Think GW1 bonus objectives. Now, imagine if going for the bonus still had a risk of failing the bonus, but wouldn't wipe your party.)
    I totally forgot about the bonuses from GW1--can't say I saw anything like them in GW2 from the beta.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterNightfall View Post
    On the subject of renown hearts - here's a few things to point out:
    And I'd like to point out that renown hearts are far from optional. I was participating in every world event that I could, keeping up with the personal story, and clearing every renown heart - only to find myself consistently two levels behind. Leveling without them is really not an option.
    This was kind of my problem with them as well--in order to catch up with the personal storyline, needed to complete the heart quests--even after doing all dynamic events that I came across.

    Just to be clear, I LOVE how they are automatic--no talking to an NPC to start the heart quests--and that you get rewards mailed to you afterwards. They are not enganging though--to each their own really though, some people like it--I just think that PvE in open world would be more rounded if the heart quests were more "quest-like" as in GW1--they are pretty much tasks/chores if you will rather than quests.

    ...

    Kind of off-topic, but I got out from under a rock and watched the WoW fight of the dragon from Cataclysm--holy ****, it was awesome--that dragon is HUGE (fighting on his spine while he flies). Looking forward to what ANet has up their sleeve for their dragon battle.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by satenia View Post
    I find that strange. In GW2 the areas had a quite clear level indicator. Outlevel the area and you get downgraded, proceed too far and you'll likely get killed. So you look what's available in the area corresponding to your level, then move on to the next. This didn't always work smooth either, there was some time (around lvl 16 I think) where the transition from one area to the other simply didn't scale well. So I ended up grinding (someone fetch harniq a pill) some world events.
    Why not do the other starting areas? Even if downgraded they still give plenty of exp :) I got stuck in queensdale at 6 when all remaining hearts were 8+. 1 short walk through another area and I was 8. Instant travel and I could continue in queensdale. Pill not needed, you're the one intentionally doing something wrong. Wrong as in, you are hurting yourself by 1/ grinding and 2/ calling something grind which isn't.

    That's very generous of you. I have already explained why I don't see the hearts quests as the innovation you claim they are, as for the rest, there is really no need to jump to conclusions.
    You have explained why you hate grinding, and then equate hearts with grinding, a false comparison. As such your explanation as a whole fails.

    Thankfully, vanilla WoW is how many years old? MMO's have evolved, SW:TOR is a good example. Logically, GW2 uses modern standards. I wouldn't have expected anything else.
    I wouldn't have expected anything else either, but on the other hand games like Aion still fail to incorporate modern standards even when they market to the west. I totally expect Tera to hugely fail in these departments too. The big accomplishment of GW2 is that it does almost everything at least right, and innovates where possible.

    Actually, diving with snorkel and trying to breath would result in swallowing plenty of water (I'm diving, so I couldn't resist ).
    You don't grind your breathing during snorkeling? How long did you stay under water until you felt like repeating the grind? Because even snorkeling requires you to grind your breathing skill, just a little bit different.

    Joking aside, I'm just shoehorning different types of breathing into grind just like you try to shoehorn different options within hearts into "mindlessly doing the same over and over" which it just isn't. Breathing isn't a chore, neither are hearts. If either is a chore, you're seriously doing something wrong.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Random comments:

    When critiquing GW2, at least get your facts straight. It makes you sound prejudiced otherwise.
    1) Most content can be done solo or not. Most solo content involves NPC allies even if you solo.
    2) Personal story often involves groups attacking you rather than solo foes. In fact, 1vs1 is very rare.
    3) Hearts offer choice in how you contribute, so do many dynamic events.

    WoW bashing on my part is based on:

    1) Combat is boring:
    1-1) No dodge, no reason to move while casting except for rare exceptions.
    1-2) Lack of cooperation outside teaming (due to kill steal, resource steal, etc)
    1-3) Trinity or GTFO
    1-4) Rotation, it's combat made boring.

    2) Quests are boring
    2-1) Quests have only one way in which you can complete them.
    2-2) Static persistent areas, which for me is less about whether the area changes, and more about mobs just standing there waiting for you to attack
    2-3) Outside of quests, there really isn't much you could do to level up. (Dungeon finder is a new addition)
    2-4) With quest chains, you can't skip quests. You have to kill 10 rats and collect dust if you want to kill the rat king.

    3) The game is grindy as hell, which is OK except that
    3-1) Endgame =/= the game, therefore you want to get to endgame
    3-2) Wastes time with lack of map travel, and so much required traveling
    3-3) The game is boring (see 1 & 2)

    I think GW2 differs a lot on those aspects. Even if you factor in that some items are subjective or opinion-based, I think I have very valid personal reasons to not invest 15$ in a WoW sub and spend a lot on GW2 instead.
    This. The equation with traditional quests, and associated grinding, fails in so many ways it's false by default.

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