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  1. #11
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    Amusing, but breaking everything down to the point where all in life is optional - breathing as well btw - is hardly relevant.

    With renown hearts, you can pick the order and the amount you want to do of each yourself, I'd say the later is a minor innovation over a regular quest, while the former would simply equal doing 3 quests.

    But the activities themselves do repeat throughout the different locations and just because you dress them differently doesn't mean the activities themselves are different. I don't have a problem with that, there are only so many activities you can offer in a specific game, however, calling it innovation is what i find hugely exaggerated. They don't really differ from each others (or other games) once you understood their repeating pattern.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by satenia View Post
    Amusing, but breaking everything down to the point where all in life is optional - breathing as well btw - is hardly relevant.

    With renown hearts, you can pick the order and the amount you want to do of each yourself, I'd say the later is a minor innovation over a regular quest, while the former would simply equal doing 3 quests.

    But the activities themselves do repeat throughout the different locations and just because you dress them differently doesn't mean the activities themselves are different. I don't have a problem with that, there are only so many activities you can offer in a specific game, however, calling it innovation is what i find hugely exaggerated. They don't really differ from each others (or other games) once you understood their repeating pattern.
    The innovation is not so much in the activities you do, but rather how you must do those activities. I find that a huge innovation. Merge multiple quest-types into one and give the user the ability to chose which quest-type (s)he wants to do. And no matter which quest-type you do, you can finish the quest. I agree, the amount of quest-types is limited (protect, gather, and attack), but personally, I wouldn't even be able to think of one other type...
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  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by satenia View Post
    Amusing, but breaking everything down to the point where all in life is optional - breathing as well btw - is hardly relevant.
    I didn't call breathing optional, instead I called it a grind since on average, you do it once a second, until you die. Sure you might skip some 20 breaths if you are really bored of the grind but life quickly forces you to pick up the grind once again. It's not optional and life even punishes you for avoiding breath grinding...

    With renown hearts, you can pick the order and the amount you want to do of each yourself, I'd say the later is a minor innovation over a regular quest, while the former would simply equal doing 3 quests.

    But the activities themselves do repeat throughout the different locations and just because you dress them differently doesn't mean the activities themselves are different. I don't have a problem with that, there are only so many activities you can offer in a specific game, however, calling it innovation is what i find hugely exaggerated. They don't really differ from each others (or other games) once you understood their repeating pattern.
    Which is why hearts are the least grindy as possibly imaginable. You do what you want, not what you must. Big difference. Even if there's a pattern, which I actually avoid because I just do what crosses my path. I found some apples, they happened to be an event. Handed them in, got some more, got bored and ran away. Ten minutes later I got exp, even though I specifically did not grind more apples than was fun. If you insist on seeing the patterns, and then actively start complaining, I just show you some other patterns in real life which are even more mind numbing than hearts. There are no alternatives to breath grind you know.....

    You want to call the hearts a grind, even though they totally don't fit into the definition, simply because it allows you to whine about grinding without addressing the issue at hand. That's shoehorning which just doesn't work here. Let me compare.

    you: I hate my necro because he wields a sword
    me: your necro is wielding an axe
    you: It's made of steel, it's a sword! I hate swords, which is why I hate this necro
    me: 1/ you're not even required to use a sword, 2/ an axe is not a sword, 3/ necro's can't even use swords...
    you: he's wearing a sword so I hate necros
    me: *sigh*


    If you don't like hearts, say why you don't like hearts, but don't call it something it isn't. Because attacking something which is unrelated to hearts, doesn't give you a valid argument about hearts.

  4. #14
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    I did not feel forced to do the Hearts, and quite a few times, I'd walk towards one, find out what it wanted me to do, and thought 'screw it' and went and found something else. This differs from my experience of other MMOs, where I have to pick up a quest in order to gain any significant amount of XP, and likely for a decent while during my levelling, I will have no other means of getting XP other than old-style quests and possibly actual grinding - finding a quiet spot with lots of mobs of a comparable level to my own which I can kill over and over.

    Therein lies the difference. In other MMOs, you generally HAVE to pick up the quest and HAVE to go and do it. In GW2 I could see what these heart-shaped quests wanted of me, and if I wasn't feeling up to it, I could just take off. I didn't feel forced to finish it to gain a reward, because there was at least 3-4 other things I could have been doing instead (events, skill points, exploration, personal story etc).

    Perhaps the problem arises from a generation of MMO gamers who have become so used to being made to do often dull quests to gain XP, that they don't understand that the heart-quests are not as essential as the generic quests in other MMOs are. You don't have to stick around - I think people are just not used to the option of walking away and finding something more suitable to do.

    Oh, and RE the title - I've played a couple of MMOs. GW2 PvE felt nothing like any of them! Woooh subjective experience!
    Last edited by kokabel; 03-05-2012 at 12:30.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Rhonwyn View Post
    The innovation is not so much in the activities you do, but rather how you must do those activities. I find that a huge innovation. Merge multiple quest-types into one and give the user the ability to chose which quest-type (s)he wants to do. And no matter which quest-type you do, you can finish the quest. I agree, the amount of quest-types is limited (protect, gather, and attack), but personally, I wouldn't even be able to think of one other type...
    To me it seems more like a matter of convenience. You don't have to accept a bunch of quests first, area and activity is given, but with a choice along the lines of "complete x out of y". It doesn't appear as forced as a traditional way of handing out quests, that I agree with.


    Quote Originally Posted by harniq View Post
    Which is why hearts are the least grindy as possibly imaginable. You do what you want, not what you must. Big difference. Even if there's a pattern, which I actually avoid because I just do what crosses my path. I found some apples, they happened to be an event. Handed them in, got some more, got bored and ran away. Ten minutes later I got exp, even though I specifically did not grind more apples than was fun. If you insist on seeing the patterns, and then actively start complaining, I just show you some other patterns in real life which are even more mind numbing than hearts. There are no alternatives to breath grind you know.....

    You want to call the hearts a grind, even though they totally don't fit into the definition, simply because it allows you to whine about grinding without addressing the issue at hand. That's shoehorning which just doesn't work here. Let me compare.

    you: I hate my necro because he wields a sword
    me: your necro is wielding an axe
    you: It's made of steel, it's a sword! I hate swords, which is why I hate this necro
    me: 1/ you're not even required to use a sword, 2/ an axe is not a sword, 3/ necro's can't even use swords...
    you: he's wearing a sword so I hate necros
    me: *sigh*


    If you don't like hearts, say why you don't like hearts, but don't call it something it isn't. Because attacking something which is unrelated to hearts, doesn't give you a valid argument about hearts.
    You don't just aimlessly wander around and happen to fill the hearts progress, sorry. It is quite clear what and where you have to do it in order to have it count towards said progress.

    The pattern is there that you have the 3 (as in your example) choices. While I agree that it is a minor innovation that you can choose yourself which of these you do in what amount, it does not largely differ from simply accepting 3 quests in the area. Once you progress to the next area, you will again find the same situation with the 3 same choices (dressed differently).

    This is, as the OP states, quite like the generic MMO that used to get a lot of hate on these forums prior to GW2 beta. I'm simply surprised over this change of attitude. I don't hate the hearts (or necros wielding whatever weapon), I just look past their disguise and don't find them different from what we played in previous games.


    Quote Originally Posted by kokabel View Post
    I did not feel forced to do the Hearts, and quite a few times, I'd walk towards one, find out what it wanted me to do, and thought 'screw it' and went and found something else. This differs from my experience of other MMOs, where I have to pick up a quest in order to gain any significant amount of XP, and likely for a decent while during my levelling, I will have no other means of getting XP other than old-style quests and possibly actual grinding - finding a quiet spot with lots of mobs of a comparable level to my own which I can kill over and over.

    Therein lies the difference. In other MMOs, you generally HAVE to pick up the quest and HAVE to go and do it. In GW2 I could see what these heart-shaped quests wanted of me, and if I wasn't feeling up to it, I could just take off. I didn't feel forced to finish it to gain a reward, because there was at least 3-4 other things I could have been doing instead (events, skill points, exploration, personal story etc).
    You can just as easily walk past a NPC with an quest exclamation mark over its head.

    And I'd dare saying that MMOs generally offer more quests in an area that is required to keep up with the leveling curve, the last one I played did so easily (SW:TOR). Take what you like, skip the rest. Not really different.
    Last edited by satenia; 03-05-2012 at 12:50. Reason: multi-quote ftw

  6. #16
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    I found GW2 to bear haunting similarities to Star Wars: The Old Republic, actually.

    One reason they needed ad infinitum similar mobs is because areas are no longer instanced except in story quests, and so they have to have enough mobs and events spawning to allow everyone to get what they need without struggling for resources. The problem was that half the time I ended up in roving herds of questers during the BWE and it took me three times as long to do anything because people were spawn camping the mobs and objectives. People tell me this will be alleviated once the full game allows others to distribute across the world and game servers, but this poses its own problems for spawns and events that require lots of people to help zerg it to completion.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by satenia View Post
    You can just as easily walk past a NPC with an quest exclamation mark over its head.
    You can, but in most MMOs (and as I said, especially early on before you find your ways into instances and similar sorts of things), where else are you going to get a lump of XP of significant value? Quests are your best bet for gaining meaninful lumps of XP. IN GW2, Hearts provide nice XP but so does everything else, as far as I could tell. I didn't have to choose them just because they provided the only good, significant progression to my levelling. I could just GTFO and do whatever.

    And I'd dare saying that MMOs generally offer more quests in an area that is required to keep up with the leveling curve, the last one I played did so easily (SW:TOR). Take what you like, skip the rest. Not really different.
    The same 'do what you like, move along' attitude can be taken with GW2. Except GW2 has more than the heart-quests and instances as a means of gaining meaningful XP.

    The fact running around GW2 felt quite disorganised and meandering I think distinguishes it for me from other MMOs. With other MMOs, I generally pick up all the quests I can, to level as fast as possible, to get out of the boring zones. I usually see what's available and plot out a path, maybe leaving out any quests that are above my ability - that doesn't really count as a choice, in my eyes. It just means I'm not good enough/levelled enough to tackle it so I don't really get much a of choice at all. GW2... that just didn't happen. I didn't feel the need to 'get stuff done' so I could unlock some stats and play around and actually go do something fun - I was having fun from the get-go. I had no need to set myself a plan or a path (though one could do so, if they so wished) - I just went. And if I wanted to see what was sitting all the way on the other side of the map, I didn't have to wait until I'd levelled up some more to do so. It's just far more flexible than the old-style MMO template people are comparing it to - and I still think it's just a bit of culture shock for most people, who have become accustomed to tackling MMO content in the most efficient manner they can muster.
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  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by satenia View Post
    You don't just aimlessly wander around and happen to fill the hearts progress, sorry. It is quite clear what and where you have to do it in order to have it count towards said progress.

    The pattern is there that you have the 3 (as in your example) choices. While I agree that it is a minor innovation that you can choose yourself which of these you do in what amount, it does not largely differ from simply accepting 3 quests in the area. Once you progress to the next area, you will again find the same situation with the 3 same choices (dressed differently).

    This is, as the OP states, quite like the generic MMO that used to get a lot of hate on these forums prior to GW2 beta. I'm simply surprised over this change of attitude. I don't hate the hearts (or necros wielding whatever weapon), I just look past their disguise and don't find them different from what we played in previous games.
    It differs greatly. Within a quest you never have options. Grind 10 boar ears, even if they never ever drop. That's it.

    Grinding means doing the same thing over and over again, usually it's killing a single mob over and over again. Until you level. Then you do it again with the next mob. The main reason is getting to max level to do bosses, dungeons and pvp. For all that you face the grind.

    In GW2 this differs so much, you must be blind or prejudiced to not see it:
    - within a heart you have options. If you're bored of one option, you can do another
    - every heart is optional, there's plenty (in other games there's usually not enough quests => forcing questless grind)
    - there are alternatives to hearts in pve in the form of events, bosses, skills, and personal story
    - so if you don't like pve... it is optional. Go do WvW instead!
    - and even levelling is optional since pvp gives you instant 80, and at lvl 10 you already have cool content, dungeons and bosses
    So you're not required to do anything you don't want to. Since you apparently don't like hearts, frikkin don't do them. If you don't like pve... go do something else. And if you don't like GW2, I'm not forcing you to play it.
    I just want you to be honest, and don't call something grind that just doesn't fit the description.

    You can just as easily walk past a NPC with an quest exclamation mark over its head.
    Sure you can, but the alternative is killing the same mobs without a big fat xp quest. I do not think that's a real choices, especially not compared to the wealth of options GW2 gives you.

    And I'd dare saying that MMOs generally offer more quests in an area that is required to keep up with the leveling curve, the last one I played did so easily (SW:TOR). Take what you like, skip the rest. Not really different.
    In general, MMOs offer not even half as many quests as required by the leveling curve, forcing you into grinding mobs. In Vanilla WoW there was a gap between 38 and 42 with almost no quests at all. In Aion the quest all but stopped around level 25, the only way to get through was grinding. Let me just phrase that GW2 (and SW:TOR) differ in this regard, but nearly all other mmo's don't.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by satenia View Post
    But the activities themselves do repeat throughout the different locations and just because you dress them differently doesn't mean the activities themselves are different. I don't have a problem with that, there are only so many activities you can offer in a specific game, however, calling it innovation is what i find hugely exaggerated. They don't really differ from each others (or other games) once you understood their repeating pattern.
    Breathing with a scuba tank is still breathing. And diving with snorkel and fins is still breathing. Yet they are all quite different from each other, and from the breathing on land. So if you focus on grinding breath, life will indeed look like a grind.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokabel View Post
    The fact running around GW2 felt quite disorganised and meandering I think distinguishes it for me from other MMOs. With other MMOs, I generally pick up all the quests I can, to level as fast as possible, to get out of the boring zones. I usually see what's available and plot out a path, maybe leaving out any quests that are above my ability - that doesn't really count as a choice, in my eyes. It just means I'm not good enough/levelled enough to tackle it so I don't really get much a of choice at all. GW2... that just didn't happen.
    I find that strange. In GW2 the areas had a quite clear level indicator. Outlevel the area and you get downgraded, proceed too far and you'll likely get killed. So you look what's available in the area corresponding to your level, then move on to the next. This didn't always work smooth either, there was some time (around lvl 16 I think) where the transition from one area to the other simply didn't scale well. So I ended up grinding (someone fetch harniq a pill) some world events.


    Quote Originally Posted by harniq View Post
    It differs greatly. Within a quest you never have options. Grind 10 boar ears, even if they never ever drop. That's it.

    Grinding means doing the same thing over and over again, usually it's killing a single mob over and over again. Until you level. Then you do it again with the next mob. The main reason is getting to max level to do bosses, dungeons and pvp. For all that you face the grind.

    In GW2 this differs so much, you must be blind or prejudiced to not see it:
    - within a heart you have options. If you're bored of one option, you can do another
    - every heart is optional, there's plenty (in other games there's usually not enough quests => forcing questless grind)
    - there are alternatives to hearts in pve in the form of events, bosses, skills, and personal story
    - so if you don't like pve... it is optional. Go do WvW instead!
    - and even levelling is optional since pvp gives you instant 80, and at lvl 10 you already have cool content, dungeons and bosses
    So you're not required to do anything you don't want to. Since you apparently don't like hearts, frikkin don't do them. If you don't like pve... go do something else. And if you don't like GW2, I'm not forcing you to play it.
    I just want you to be honest, and don't call something grind that just doesn't fit the description.
    That's very generous of you. I have already explained why I don't see the hearts quests as the innovation you claim they are, as for the rest, there is really no need to jump to conclusions.


    Quote Originally Posted by harniq View Post
    In general, MMOs offer not even half as many quests as required by the leveling curve, forcing you into grinding mobs. In Vanilla WoW there was a gap between 38 and 42 with almost no quests at all. In Aion the quest all but stopped around level 25, the only way to get through was grinding. Let me just phrase that GW2 (and SW:TOR) differ in this regard, but nearly all other mmo's don't.
    Thankfully, vanilla WoW is how many years old? MMO's have evolved, SW:TOR is a good example. Logically, GW2 uses modern standards. I wouldn't have expected anything else.


    Quote Originally Posted by harniq View Post
    Breathing with a scuba tank is still breathing. And diving with snorkel and fins is still breathing. Yet they are all quite different from each other, and from the breathing on land. So if you focus on grinding breath, life will indeed look like a grind.
    Actually, diving with snorkel and trying to breath would result in swallowing plenty of water (I'm diving, so I couldn't resist ).

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