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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by teina View Post
    1) do people find heart quests enjoyable?
    2) Would they do them if there were little or no rewards to do them (maybe just a title or some sort of achievement).
    1) Yes, and I did do them without caring about the rewards.
    2) I would prioritize those things that I do enjoy and that does give a reward over those things that I enjoy but don't give a reward. Same reason why I did stuff like PvP and Titan Quests much later (PvP did not contribute to titles until later).
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by teina View Post
    This is my feeling as well.
    I'm fine with whatever there is to do in open world PvE -- as long as its interesting. For myself, I like some RPG in my PvE -- what grabs my interest. The game currently just feels like that RPG element is unevenly dispersed. My feeling of a "dead open world" comes from my impression that there isn't enough RPG in open world -- since (I would imagine) open world PvE probably will see more game play than the personalized storyline (where the brunt of RPG is focused), this concerns me.

    I am going to compare GW1 here--because really, beyond the changes, it was the previous template to expand upon. Open world PvE in GW2 (beyond dynamic events) feels like being in town in GW1 to me. I'm sitting in town (in GW2 open world PvE) and know that outside of it there are quests and missions to do (dungeons, personal storyline, etc.). I would rather feel like actual towns felt like towns, and PvE open world was something to add alongside dungeons/personalized storyline, etc.

    And to keep this post a little on topic; hearts don't hold the RPG I am looking for in waiting for more dynamic events to take place in open world Pve between not being able to progress (due to level caps) the personal storyline for my RPG fix.

    ...

    And of course we haven't played more into higher level of open world story progression--but that "empty" feeling didn't leave me even after venturing beyond Queensdale--where I would think the "starter zone" started to progress into game? Will see how the game continues next beta.
    Last edited by Смерть; 30-05-2012 at 21:12.

  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    So instead of having to do one grind at a time, you get to do a few grinds at the same time, and you can reduce one grind by doing more of another. That is what I have been saying all the time.
    If you can mix and match, by definition, it is NOT grind. That's what I've been saying all the time. It is only grind when you have no options or only 1 action is really feasible. If you never know the next task at hand, by definition, you're not grinding. If you can choose your task, you're not grinding.

    Sure every possible task within a heart could be grind if you only did that. But a sane person doesn't. He eliminates the grind by mixing and matching. Doing 1 thing ten times is grind. Doing 5 things twice is not, even if those five things could be a grind if one chose to. And that's something you don't seem to understand.

    As a student I worked at a manufacturing line. For 8 hours straight every day I had to do exactly the same thing every minute. THAT's grinding. It's frikking boring to the extent I'd rip my face off if I had to do that more than 6 months. At that job, after a decade of grinding there was a chance of promotion to team leader. Apart from that, no raises ever. Very korean if you ask me.
    My current job is a form of problem solving with deadlines often less than five minutes. When a customer calls there's millions of euro's at stake, he has to be helped yesterday and virtually every problem is unique. Even though I do that job 8 hours a day, it's not grind. Furthermore I get a default raise every year to keep up with accomplishments and promotion is virtually guarantueed within reasonable time spans.

    If you wonder why I want to play a grind free mmo like GW2 instead of a korean one like TERA, Aion or what have you, just look at the job I do. I do not like boring repetitive tasks and I seriously do not like to do them as a past time.

  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by teina View Post
    Ah, ok, there we go. I think that's what this whole thread boils down to. If we avoided the loaded word "grind", do people find heart quests enjoyable? Would they do them if there were little or no rewards to do them (maybe just a title or some sort of achievement). I think that's the best way to judge if something is enjoyable. Would I do this if there was no meter to fill, and very little gain at the end? For me, I agree with you, I would skip them if not for them being the faster way to earn XP and leveling up, so I can go do something else.

    -T
    I would do them if there were no xp or even merchant unlock bonus - just because there would be empty hearts on the map and heart counter in the loading screen...

    ... which does count as a meter to fill, but without hearts on the map and heart counter, it would be rather hard to inform players that there are even hearts to be done - and i think this goes little beoynd subject of reward vs no reward.

    So yes i would do them just because they are there to be done, but i am aware lot of people wouldn't - which is not necessarily a bad thing, like it's not a bad thing not everyone did above mentioned vanquishing.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by harniq View Post
    If you can mix and match, by definition, it is NOT grind. That's what I've been saying all the time.
    Your definition is way too strict. By that definition, GW1 has no grind whatsoever, WoW has no grind whatsoever at least until max level, and frankly I have a hard time imagining a game that would have grind.

    As soon as you can have more than one quest in your quest log, and you can get XP from killing foes, you no longer have grind. By your flawed definition. All MMOs let you do that, the only real difference with GW2 is that it combines multiple quests into one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leriel View Post
    (...)
    I like counters to fill, but they have to be filled by doing different things. Hearts is a nice example of that, a heart here differs from a heart there. Sure, there are similarities, but they involve different monsters and scenery. Plus, you really don't have to do them all, or to do them at all. It's only if you want to fill the counter, which much like achievements, is optional.

    You still need the XP so you probably have to do a few here and there.
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  6. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Leriel View Post
    I would do them if there were no xp or even merchant unlock bonus - just because there would be empty hearts on the map and heart counter in the loading screen...
    Right, exactly. Because there's a goal, even a virtual one (making the map complete to unlock some achievement). I doubt you'd go back to feed the cows or pick up the apples or shake bushes and kill bunnies repeatedly after you've completed the hearts, when nothing else is left to achieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leriel View Post
    but without hearts on the map and heart counter, it would be rather hard to inform players that there are even hearts to be done
    No, it wouldn't. Let's take the hearts (the actual hearts, not the quests) and the meters out. So now there's no "complete all hearts" achievement on the map, and no vendors to unlock, and no meter to tell you that there's a goal to reach. However, there's still the "hey, Farmer John needs your help to clear this field and weed the yard" or whatever that pops up. You can do them, they give a little more XP per chore, but there's no burst XP for filling a meter, no unlock, no achievements.

    But people wouldn't want that, they want achievements to fill (see below). That's fine. But don't make it the only viable way to level up. Make WvW leveling more comparable. Make events spawn more often. Add more optional XP earning potentials to personal stories. Heck, make regular enemy kills have more XP. I'd rather have those as options rather than "pick X apples or kill Y spiders or some combination of both" over and over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Your definition is way too strict. By that definition, GW1 has no grind whatsoever, WoW has no grind whatsoever at least until max level, and frankly I have a hard time imagining a game that would have grind.

    As soon as you can have more than one quest in your quest log, and you can get XP from killing foes, you no longer have grind. By your flawed definition. All MMOs let you do that, the only real difference with GW2 is that it combines multiple quests into one.
    Agreed. Aion was mentioned as being "grindy", yet I regulary ignore quests I don't want to do, and I'm still outleveling quests that I want to do. By that strict definition, Aion has no grind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    I like counters to fill, but they have to be filled by doing different things. Hearts is a nice example of that, a heart here differs from a heart there. Sure, there are similarities, but they involve different monsters and scenery. Plus, you really don't have to do them all, or to do them at all. It's only if you want to fill the counter, which much like achievements, is optional.

    You still need the XP so you probably have to do a few here and there.
    Yep, and that's what I dislike about hearts. Now, I don't dislike ALL hearts, some are somewhat interesting. I just dislike the mechanics of the burst XP for completion, which, as it stands now, is the most efficient way of leveling up. And to some of us, that makes the hearts grindy (adj.), no matter what wiki you want to quote.

    -T

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by teina View Post
    I'd rather have those as options rather than "pick X apples or kill Y spiders or some combination of both" over and over.
    I like having options. I do like having my meters that point to everywhere in the world where there are things that I should try... I don't use meters as XP fillers, I use them as a todo list so that I can fully experience the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by teina View Post
    Agreed. Aion was mentioned as being "grindy", yet I regulary ignore quests I don't want to do, and I'm still outleveling quests that I want to do. By that strict definition, Aion has no grind?
    I know, right? That definition has to be dropped because it doesn't allow us to have a proper conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by teina View Post
    I just dislike the mechanics of the burst XP for completion, which, as it stands now, is the most efficient way of leveling up.
    I generally prefer (1) smooth XP or title gain rather than burst at completion, and (2) keeping completion mostly cosmetic, i.e. give higher reward for killing foes and smaller rewards for filling bars.

    I imagined a GWAMM where it doesn't add only completed titles, but rather it counts incomplete titles as well. So if you did 50% of two titles, you'd have 1 point towards GWAMM. Doing half of a heart could give you 50% of its reward in gold and XP, for example, and you can go back anytime to finish it and get the rest.

    The problem with #2 though is that it gives a big payoff for farming one spot. Find the most efficient spot to farm, and stick there. Instead, hearts, dynamic events, and story rewards... they all encourage you to move around. I'm not entirely sure how I'd implement #2 while still encouraging movement and exploration.
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  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    I like having options. I do like having my meters that point to everywhere in the world where there are things that I should try... I don't use meters as XP fillers, I use them as a todo list so that I can fully experience the game.
    Well, that's the thing. I don't think I'm experiencing more of the game if I picked up all of the apples vs. just a few. To me, it would be good if the hearts are filled quickly (one or two apples, etc.), just to say "yes, you've experienced this". Then afterwards still provide additional small "helper" XP if you choose to keep doing it.

    I generally prefer (1) smooth XP or title gain rather than burst at completion, and (2) keeping completion mostly cosmetic, i.e. give higher reward for killing foes and smaller rewards for filling bars.
    Agreed, that's similar to what I mentioned with the no-hearts-no-bar "quests" above. You can still help Farmer John, you get a little helper XP for doing the chores so you have an incentive to do it. Remove the completion XP and make individual tasks have more XP instead. That way if you do 80% of the chores, you get 80% of the total XP. I don't think people grinding cow-feeding XP is going to be a problem later on.


    The problem with #2 though is that it gives a big payoff for farming one spot. Find the most efficient spot to farm, and stick there. Instead, hearts, dynamic events, and story rewards... they all encourage you to move around. I'm not entirely sure how I'd implement #2 while still encouraging movement and exploration.
    The rewards can be capped. Like, after feeding the cows 100 times, Farmer John thanks you and you no longer get helper XP. Or, it's level gated, so if you are level 20, you don't get XP for feeding level 1 cows. But even then, people who are prone to farming will find ways to farm no matter what. Besides, I think movement and exploration should come naturally, like in the original Prophecies. I'd much prefer having zones and areas where there may be things going on and it's for the adventurous to find it, without having the game lead me to every corner. The flip side of that is if you're doing your 3rd or 10th character, you don't have to feel like you have to do these incentives in order to level up.

    -T

  9. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by CMEPTb View Post
    I am going to compare GW1 here--because really, beyond the changes, it was the previous template to expand upon. Open world PvE in GW2 (beyond dynamic events) feels like being in town in GW1 to me. I'm sitting in town (in GW2 open world PvE) and know that outside of it there are quests and missions to do (dungeons, personal storyline, etc.). I would rather feel like actual towns felt like towns, and PvE open world was something to add alongside dungeons/personalized storyline, etc.
    Interesting perspective. It's probably why the game felt so empty.

  10. #100
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    During this BWE2 I hit the 50 hearts achievement, this through playing in all available areas (human, norn, charr) and also taking one character a bit further (lvl 25+ areas) than I initially planned for a beta event. A few old and new observations:

    • Hearts events don't largely differ from each others, they offer the same activities (kill, fed-ex, collect) dressed differently (bandits, centaurs, spiders, cows). While doing your first event at level 2 feels totally revolutionary, still feeding cows at lvl 25 doesn't so much. Presentation alone cannot make up for the fact that a hearts event is nothing but a combination of traditional quests.
    • Hearts events will dictate the area you complete it in, just as well as parts of it will have you run back and forth between an activity/NPC. With the small exception of auto-accepting the event, interacting with the world and/or NPC's follows traditional questing.
    • Perceived freedom of choice (how much you do of each to complete the event) is too much dependent on outside factors. If an area is (close to) deserted, you cannot avoid killing. If you want to favor one activity over the other, you will spawn-camp. Some hearts events are killing-heavy by design. All in all, you don't really choose (much).
    • Hearts events are not optional to complete if you want to efficiently play the game and keep your character level according to your progress through the areas. Starting with lvl 15+ and only getting worse later on, you will basically farm the map for events of all sorts.
    • The way they automatically pop up and disappear from your log is a good indicator about how anonymous they really are. With the lack of mandatory NPC interaction (usually only for one part of the event) and personalization, it's easy to just hop in on the event, then move on without a second thought, next time will be centaurs instead of bandits. The hearts events lack atmosphere, combined with their repetitive nature, they start to feel like a grind.


    To conclude, hearts are quests and are grindy. At least they dress up nicely though.

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