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  1. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrandar View Post
    Oh don't get me wrong I am not saying that DAO is the pinnacle of sp games, its not. I am just saying that the scope of singleplayer games is generally much smaller then an MMO in both time and space. In a persistent world permanently closing of parts of the world is not feasible, neither is destroying them (unless you do it as Blizz did in Cataclysm) simply because the game is the world, not going through it in a linear fashion as for example in DAO. I know Fallout 3 and the impact you could have on your surroundings, but honestly I personally felt that it didn't make for a very good story despite all that. Permanently kiling of npc's or blowing up towns is cool but does not a story make, nor is it imo a requirement to enjoy a story. My point is again the suspension of disbelief, part of that is accepting the gamemechanics. In an MMO I accept the fact that I cannot pertinently change the world around me which leaves me free to enjoy the rest of it.

    That said I do think that you can have impact in an MMO as well, player cities as you mention is a good example. Dynamic events like you describe them elsewhere on a script alike to RTS games would be another and thats how I imagined them originally. Dynamic events like they are now with new ones replacing them or interacting with their spawn rate a good second.
    But you can change the world, that's what DEs are for. Except that they don't change the world that much.

    But anyway, about hearts - yeah, they do require you to accept that there are infinite apples to pick and an infinite amount of bandits that attack. But precisely that act of accepting is part of what causes it to feel like grind. I'm not saying that "hearts should act like DEs" or that they should appear only periodically. Because that would just mean that they still are grindy but this time, not accessible all the time, which would mean that players would go to the places where they appear and wait until they do.

    I am saying that:

    • Hearts should be removed as they are now. As in, they should not give xp rewards and there should be no progress bar.
    • The heart content, that which allows you do feed cows etc, could remain. That stuff gives a ton of extra flavor to the world.
    • There could be some minor reward for doing certain things related to that content. However the reward should be so small as to it being a waste of time if you do it for the reward. Basically, you should do the content because you want to do it.
    • There should be no pointer to any of this. That way, finding such content will be the reward for exploration. Since the content itself is not that rewarding, exploration itself will not be a grind either.
    • Hearts can be enabled or disabled by success or failure in nearby DEs. For example, if a DE makes you "lose" a town, then the "hearts" (which would no longer be hearts, but their content would be there) would be inaccessible. Other content of the same type could appear instead.


    Quote Originally Posted by RushV View Post
    Gah I hate setting up multiple quotes.

    Okay, you can't compare games of 2 different genre's o.O you aren't gonna get anywhere. Minecraft is a sandbox, that's it. If you do follow that path, it's not just a check list. You have to walk from heart A on the eastern side of the map to heart B on the western side of the map. The first thought may be, okay time to knock it off the list, but as you walk over there, there will probably be 10+ dynamic events going on that you can participate in. I like to think of it as a path with a lot of turn offs and intersections.
    Click the multi-quote button (the one with the speech bubble and the + sign on) on every post you want to quote, except the last, and then press "reply with quote" on that one like normal.

    ANYWAY. Yeah, I know, but my point was that games that are 100% sandbox are accepted by players if they are just handed to them as a sandbox. It has to be designed for it, though, which GW2 is not. it seemed to be, judging by what they said before the betas, but turns out it's not.
    Also, I see what you mean... but running between hearts didn't make me see 10+ DEs.

  2. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    Click the multi-quote button (the one with the speech bubble and the + sign on) on every post you want to quote, except the last, and then press "reply with quote" on that one like normal.
    But use restraint, because no one likes a quotewall. And replying to each individual comment weakens the overall discussion and often the point of the conversation is lost.
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  3. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    • Hearts should be removed as they are now. As in, they should not give xp rewards and there should be no progress bar.
    • The heart content, that which allows you do feed cows etc, could remain. That stuff gives a ton of extra flavor to the world.
    • There could be some minor reward for doing certain things related to that content. However the reward should be so small as to it being a waste of time if you do it for the reward. Basically, you should do the content because you want to do it.
    • There should be no pointer to any of this. That way, finding such content will be the reward for exploration. Since the content itself is not that rewarding, exploration itself will not be a grind either.
    • Hearts can be enabled or disabled by success or failure in nearby DEs. For example, if a DE makes you "lose" a town, then the "hearts" (which would no longer be hearts, but their content would be there) would be inaccessible. Other content of the same type could appear instead.

    You would get my vote on this wholeheartedly.


    @Shawn: I only ever healed with the Shaman in Cata (so never got to experience the classic chainheal) but got soon bored with it. There were some nice idea's (keeping mana up with chain lightning spam was rather awesome) but overall it felt rather bland. I guess I just love rolling a multitude of HOT's too much.
    Last edited by Shrandar; 13-07-2012 at 13:40.

  4. #314
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    On the quest text (that's this thread, right? All the quotes and walls of text are throwing me off):
    I don't know what WoW's quests were like: I only played it for a few months several years ago. Wasn't really my thing. LotRO had something like two paragraphs when an NPC gave you a quest. The objectives were bulleted out below, so I almost never read them. I seem to remember this being the same in other MMOs and was definitely the same in Guild Wars.

    It's not a lot of reading, really, except when you consider that almost all of your leveling comes from questing and you'll pretty much be working on five quests at once at any given time. If you're playing for a few hours, you might do 15+ quests. Are you really going to read all that? I am a big reader and even I skim that ish.

  5. #315
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    Quick replies:

    WoW has a lot of text. It's nice that most of it can be skipped, but it's still there. I don't have a problem with it, but I didn't read it either when I was playing it.

    What WoW needs imo is to drastically change the game, but then fans will say that they ruined it. Really, short of making a separate game (which they are doing), it's really hard to keep a game going. I can't come up with ways to fix WoW without talking about GW2.
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  6. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by shawn View Post
    But use restraint, because no one likes a quotewall.
    Opinions opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDarken View Post
    On the quest text (that's this thread, right? All the quotes and walls of text are throwing me off):
    I don't know what WoW's quests were like: I only played it for a few months several years ago. Wasn't really my thing. LotRO had something like two paragraphs when an NPC gave you a quest. The objectives were bulleted out below, so I almost never read them. I seem to remember this being the same in other MMOs and was definitely the same in Guild Wars.

    It's not a lot of reading, really, except when you consider that almost all of your leveling comes from questing and you'll pretty much be working on five quests at once at any given time. If you're playing for a few hours, you might do 15+ quests. Are you really going to read all that? I am a big reader and even I skim that ish.
    WoW quests often have a lot of text, describing the plight of the woodcutters or farmers or whatever the hell. The sad part is that often, that is the only part that is handmade. Then you are sent off to kill 5 Kind Badgers. When you return you get 30 copper coins or something, and a quest to kill 7 Mean Badgers. And so on, in a chain of maybe 3 quests that end with you getting a pair of boots that give slightly more armor than your current ones, and which you will replace once you complete the next set of quests which require you to kill the next set of reskins.

    There is a very small set of standard quest types, so there is no real need of reading anything more than needed to identify the quest type. Usually, this is:
    * Kill X of Y
    * Get X of Y drops that drop from Z
    * Kill X and bring me his head
    * Go talk to X
    Did I forget any? I don't think so. There are also unique quests but, yeah.

    They could definitely benefit from giving options.

  7. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawn View Post
    But use restraint, because no one likes a quotewall. And replying to each individual comment weakens the overall discussion and often the point of the conversation is lost.
    I like to see what people reply to. But like rasp said:

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    Opinions opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    there is no real need of reading anything more than needed to identify the quest type.
    Which is in the quest log thingy anyway, so you don't even need to read the quest text at all except for rare instances when the thing you are looking for is hidden.

    Ultimately though, I think that "quests" (in the general term) is something we can't really get rid of. You need to do stuff, and that stuff that needs to be done is not all that varied. Kill stuff. Get stuff. Move around. Most of what you do in combat-oriented games fall into these three categories.

    I like how DE's combine and chain these quests into a story that evolves over time, even if scripted. And I like that hearts don't really do that, so you can if you choose to have a different experience. So you can join the parade (DE) or do the rides (Hearts) or do a bit of both.
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  8. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    Click the multi-quote button (the one with the speech bubble and the + sign on) on every post you want to quote, except the last, and then press "reply with quote" on that one like normal.

    ANYWAY. Yeah, I know, but my point was that games that are 100% sandbox are accepted by players if they are just handed to them as a sandbox. It has to be designed for it, though, which GW2 is not. it seemed to be, judging by what they said before the betas, but turns out it's not.
    Also, I see what you mean... but running between hearts didn't make me see 10+ DEs.
    I love you right now. You have saved me so much time. I don't remember ArenaNet advertising GW2 as one big sandbox. The world isn't even a sandbox, it's all instanced. You may be confusing it with how they advertised dynamic events. In each map you have the power to change it for good or better. They also stated that in the earlier maps, the dynamic events were not going to be as complex as the ones at the end of the game, which is about the time where they lower their number of hearts. They want players to do dynamic events, they just realized that early on they might be confusing to a big chunk of the new players.

    I wish there was a GW2 sandbox...T-T

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    Then you are sent off to kill 5 Kind Badgers. When you return you get 30 copper coins or something, and a quest to kill 7 Mean Badgers.
    Why would you kill the Kind Badgers!?!?!
    Last edited by RushV; 13-07-2012 at 20:45.

  9. #319
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    Maybe one day we'll get a chance to make our own DEs, either via a contest or open tools a la CoH.

  10. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Ultimately though, I think that "quests" (in the general term) is something we can't really get rid of. You need to do stuff, and that stuff that needs to be done is not all that varied. Kill stuff. Get stuff. Move around. Most of what you do in combat-oriented games fall into these three categories.
    Ultima Online. You didn't play it? Well... Don't. It looks horrible. But it was one of the first MMOs, and IIRC it didn't have any quests whatsoever. Instead, you just did whatever you wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by RushV View Post
    I love you right now. You have saved me so much time. I don't remember ArenaNet advertising GW2 as one big sandbox. The world isn't even a sandbox, it's all instanced. You may be confusing it with how they advertised dynamic events. In each map you have the power to change it for good or better. They also stated that in the earlier maps, the dynamic events were not going to be as complex as the ones at the end of the game, which is about the time where they lower their number of hearts. They want players to do dynamic events, they just realized that early on they might be confusing to a big chunk of the new players.

    I wish there was a GW2 sandbox...T-T
    GW2 isn't instanced (well, shared instances I guess). And instancing doesn't have anything to do with the sandbox concept. I realize that the hearts are intended for "newbies", but IMO it's much better to get such people started on DEs right away. Don't have any static content, at least not content that gives near-required rewards. Guiding players is important, but paying them to pick apples is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by RushV View Post
    Why would you kill the Kind Badgers!?!?!
    B... because I got xp for it... I... I didn't mean to... those poor poor badgers... but the xp, I had to get it... see this is why I hate grind...

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