Hearts are NOT quests, are NOT grindy

[teina]

For myself, I found everything outside the dynamic events in Open World PvE in the end, generally lacking in interest (the world feeling "empty") and coming across as grind

This is my feeling as well.

because I wanted to match my level to continue the interesting personal storyline, without running around aimlessly hoping a dynamic event would show up on the map -- and hearts/killing monsters as far as I came across where what was left for leveling (tasks I did not find that interesting or enjoyable after a while).

I found the first few hearts in Wayfarer Foothills dull and grindy the first time through, so on my second Norn character I tried to avoid them all together. Problem was, as you said, the personal story started to outlevel my character. I ended up trying to level in WvW (slooooooow) or just sat around waiting for events to spawn (boring). I would rather the personal storyline provided more XP so leveling would be more equal to the storyline progression, while rewards for the hearts and events are adjusted accordingly (less XP and more karma, perhaps).

-T

[Alaris]

Grind is grind (...). It is what comes across as grind of which I'm talking about -- which I think is more subjective than objective.

Fully agree. It's funny as you said that people argue about their subjective feeling of grindiness, when "having fun" is such a big factor in perceived grindiness.

the personal story started to outlevel my character. I ended up trying to level in WvW (slooooooow) or just sat around waiting for events to spawn (boring). I would rather the personal storyline provided more XP so leveling would be more equal to the storyline progression (...)

I disagree though, what of people who are not really interested in the storyline and would rather spend all their time in dynamic events and hearts (like me). Are personal storyline even required? Then again, the point is somewhat moot because of level scaling, so even if you have too much XP all that it hurts is that players that rush through will finish the game sooner. It wouldn't really change how I play except the 10th time through.

I do like instanced missions in the GW1 style, especially repeatable ones where you can try for a perfect score etc (e.g. masters, hard mode). /undecided

[teina]

I disagree though, what of people who are not really interested in the storyline and would rather spend all their time in dynamic events and hearts (like me). Are personal storyline even required? Then again, the point is somewhat moot because of level scaling, so even if you have too much XP all that it hurts is that players that rush through will finish the game sooner. It wouldn't really change how I play except the 10th time through.

I do like instanced missions in the GW1 style, especially repeatable ones where you can try for a perfect score etc (e.g. masters, hard mode). /undecided

To be honest, I think the problem is the move away from the level 20 cap (i.e. level 1-20 is really tutorial) of GW1. In GW2, they moved closer to the traditional MMO level crawl (I'll avoid using the touchy word "grind" ). Sure, the leveling is supposed to be smoothed, but the side-effect of levels are there, several of which has already been mentioned: personal storyline, accessing later zones, etc. So yes, I'm all for extra XP everywhere, you play what you want, XP doesn't matter. I only made the suggestion for the sake of "balance", whatever that is.

A lot of what people are disagreeing on in this thread is how much they enjoy getting from point A to point B (personal story, exploring zones, accessing WvW, whatever). If getting XP and leveling up is integral to it, then to some it'll feel like a grind. For me, Norn beginning area was much more grindy (adjective) feeling than the humans. I have no doubt I repeated the same things in human area (grind, noun), but it certainly didn't feel as laborious.

-T

[RD]

On the subject of more exp abound... I dunno, I'm of the type where I don't really like to blow through content, but if there's a way to level faster, I feel like most people would do it, myself included. Not because I like rushing to end game, but because I would just be doing what is most efficient. I level slowly because I don't "grind" out content. But if the exp for doing a certain action was much higher than heart quests (for example), I'd probably just not do heart quests.

[teina]

On the subject of more exp abound... I dunno, I'm of the type where I don't really like to blow through content, but if there's a way to level faster, I feel like most people would do it,

But why? Is leveling "content"? If not, as Alaris said, there's level scaling. You can go back to do all the contents the game has to offer, at any level. So what if you reach level 85 in the first day? You can still do the contents.

But if the exp for doing a certain action was much higher than heart quests (for example), I'd probably just not do heart quests.

There's the crux of the problem. Why won't you do the heart quests? Just because the reward is low? I enjoy missions and dungeons in GW1, I would repeat those often. I don't enjoy fed-ex quests, and I would avoid them if not for the XP (and maybe the first time through). So which is heart quests: enjoyable content ala GW1 dungeons and missions, or quests that are skippable if not for the rewards?

-T

[Alaris]

A lot of what people are disagreeing on in this thread is how much they enjoy getting from point A to point B (personal story, exploring zones, accessing WvW, whatever). If getting XP and leveling up is integral to it, then to some it'll feel like a grind. For me, Norn beginning area was much more grindy (adjective) feeling than the humans. I have no doubt I repeated the same things in human area (grind, noun), but it certainly didn't feel as laborious.

Hahah, I found the human area grindier (adjective) than charr or even norn, despite that I think those 3 areas probably contain an equal amount of grind (noun). My bias is that I really like the tech aspect of the charr area. Even if I am not a fan of guns ;)

;)

I really hope they make it so that levelling in WvW is roughly on-par with PvE. I'll be doing the story the first time around, but I hope it can be skipped entirely. I like a good story, but I don't generally care to repeat it. Thankfully GW2 tells the story by doing, rather than cutscenes (and cutscenes can be skipped).

Not because I like rushing to end game, but because I would just be doing what is most efficient.

Same here. Although I will tend to do what I prefer doing, I feel annoyed when another way of doing it is vastly more efficient. imo different ways of getting a goal should be equated on efficiency, keeping in mind that higher risks can give higher rewards.

edit ninja

But why? Is leveling "content"?

I don't think levelling is content, but it's a mechanism that slows you down so you have an excuse to experience the content.

I am happy with being able to rush through a game, if I enjoy it then I will go back and replay areas I missed. But a lot of players will rush through and then go "that's it?" And this is why we need ways to slow players down and encourage them to play the content that is there.

So which is heart quests: enjoyable content ala GW1 dungeons and missions, or quests that are skippable if not for the rewards?

I see hearts a bit like vanquishes. There if you enjoy it, but you can do something else.

As long as doing other things nets you enough XP to progress though. The question becomes "how many activities do you need to fulfill in order to progress"? Is story + some dynamic enough? What if I do some WvW + dungeons?

[RD]

But why? Is leveling "content"? If not, as Alaris said, there's level scaling. You can go back to do all the contents the game has to offer, at any level. So what if you reach level 85 in the first day? You can still do the contents.

This was fine in Guild Wars 1 when much of the game was the end game. But in GW 2 there (seems to be) so much content that I probably won't be going back to do level 1 content that I missed. Plus, it would be way too easy at level 85, even with scaling.

There's the crux of the problem. Why won't you do the heart quests? Just because the reward is low? I enjoy missions and dungeons in GW1, I would repeat those often. I don't enjoy fed-ex quests, and I would avoid them if not for the XP (and maybe the first time through). So which is heart quests: enjoyable content ala GW1 dungeons and missions, or quests that are skippable if not for the rewards?

Well I do heart quests now; this was a hypothetical if they introduced something with more exp.

I don't find heart quests enjoyable, so I would skip them if there was an alternate route were more profitable or more pleasing to me. So, to answer your question, yes I would skip them if the reward was low compared to other ways of leveling.

[Alaris]

Plus, it would be way too easy at level 85, even with scaling.

Not sure about that. I was getting killed by level 15-20 skill challenges at level 32. Scaling in theory can really flatten your advantage, the only real advantage you'd have is in customizability.

In theory.

[RD]

Not sure about that. I was getting killed by level 15-20 skill challenges at level 32. Scaling in theory can really flatten your advantage, the only real advantage you'd have is in customizability.

ANet has confirmed that scaling only depowers you so much because your gear will be better than the natural level. Furthermore, any level below 30 goes in the category of too easy because of locked skills / slots. Also, traits.

[teina]

I don't find heart quests enjoyable, so I would skip them if there was an alternate route were more profitable or more pleasing to me. So, to answer your question, yes I would skip them if the reward was low compared to other ways of leveling.

Ah, ok, there we go. I think that's what this whole thread boils down to. If we avoided the loaded word "grind", do people find heart quests enjoyable? Would they do them if there were little or no rewards to do them (maybe just a title or some sort of achievement). I think that's the best way to judge if something is enjoyable. Would I do this if there was no meter to fill, and very little gain at the end? For me, I agree with you, I would skip them if not for them being the faster way to earn XP and leveling up, so I can go do something else.

-T