GW2: Do we have a game that is far too polarising?

[hotdogtesting]

Forward
I originally posted this on the GW2 Official Forums, but I've decided to transcribe it here for two reasons. First, the GW2 forums are inaccessible right now, so the conversation was cut short. Second, I generally find the conversation on Incgamers to be more intelligent than any of the other Fan Forums... perhaps it's because the mods are less afraid to punish inappropriate behaviour...

Anyways...

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Overview
More than a few articles out on the web have stated that your average video gamer can be classified into a few types. I won't go into listing all of those articles, but I would say a good place to start reading is: http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/com...is-legendaries

Although Brother Laz's original definitions were aimed at Diablo 3, these player types can easily be applied to any online game. They are:

• The Spike – Plays to win, no matter what it takes or how boring the path to victory may be. This is the guy who is perfectly fine with the fact that his D3 wizard wields an axe and his D2 sorc wears a green potato bag on her head. This is the dickwad who picks Tryndamere in 3v3 blind pick and after banging your *** for 20 minutes goes GG EASY NOOOBS in all chat.
• The Timmy - Likes big stuff. Uses the rocket launcher because it makes big explosions. Goes all offense in every build because it makes big damage numbers. Picks Garen and screams DEMACIAAA every time he spins2win from the bush. Plays for fun where fun is defined as smashing stuff but is not willing to get bored out of his skull to maximise his success rate.
• The Johnny - Sees games as a means of self-expression. This is the guy who builds a Molten Boulder druid, intentionally wears tier 2 paladin gear in WoW when not actively fighting and picks Orianna. Usually he gets trampled by Spike but sometimes it works and then he feels great.

A lot of argument can be made on what is the "correct" way to play a game, but in the end, this is a matter of a person's preference and personality. So with all that... how does it relate back to Guild Wars 2?

The Spike
Guild Wars 2 is currently not designed for Spikes. With the heavy emphasis on Dynamic Events, Exploration, and other non-conventional sources of leveling rewards, the traditional "A to B" path to winning or leveling does not really exist in Guild Wars 2. On top of this, the current Microtransaction Store offers several ways for casual players to catch up to Spikes with items such as the XP Boosters and Damager Reducers.

For those Spikes who are unwilling to purchase XP Boosters, this game likely feel like a very hostile environment where the Dev's seem to actively work against them. They probably feel that they are being forced to pay more money in order to "play" the game as they intend.

For those Spikes who are willing to spend money on XP Boosters and the like, they will likely find this game very disorientating with seemingly no where to capitalize on those precious moments when the XP Booster is still active.

All in all, this game is not designed for Spikes.


The Timmy
In my experience, Timmy's tend to be those who most readily adopt "cookie cutter" builds. They are also the ones most likely to be "sitting on the fence" about Guild Wars 2.

Guild Wars 2 can be very rewarding to a Timmy. However, this game has a very unconventional leveling system and play style (vs. traditional MMOs). This means that it is very easy for a Timmy to wonder into areas he's not ready for. He may choose very non-Timmy classes like the Engineer. Or, he may wonder into areas that are not designed for Timmy's (i.e. any area that down-level's your character). These are all things that may disappoint a Timmy.

The Johnny
Clearly, Guild Wars 2 was targeted at this group. There is literally just SO MUCH TO DO!

That each of the personal backgrounds will general entirely different sets of quests (i.e. try "Noble + Lost Parents + Dignity" then try "Commoner + Lost Sister + Ferocity" for Human backgrounds) clearly shouts out to the Johnny's. Not to mention that each weapon set and utility skill set seems to offer hidden combo's just waiting for your average Johnny to figure out and develop into full fledged builds.

And So...?
How can we "fix" the game for each of these archetypes?

For the Johnny's...
... the Dev's have an easy job. Just keep doing what you're already doing.

For the Timmy's...
... I think we need two changes... the first is education...

While a lot of people saw those early Guild Wars 2 "Class Reveal" videos, I think very few people other than the most ardent fans really bother to look up what each of those videos meant. For example, early on one of the dev's (I think it may have been Colin) mentioned that the order of the reveals is the same as the increasing level of "difficulty" in playing a given class. Few people now seem to remember this.

Recall that the warrior and elementalist videos came first. They are really the most stereotypical Timmy classes with easy builds and big numbers right from the get-go. However, on these boards, I seem to see a lot of Timmy's try to play classes like the Engineer or Mesmer then complain that their DPS is very low. Few of them realize that these classes heavily rely upon esoteric builds and combo's that are really intended for your Johnny.

A possibly easy way of fixing this is to encourage Johnny's to share their builds with the Dev's. The most simple of these builds should have their skills move to the first tier of the skill tree. The most effective should have their skills scattered through the tree to encourage Timmy's to progress.

The unlock order of weapon skills should also be changed so that Timmy's will unlock effective builds early on... teaching them how these skills interact with each other.

The second change we need is to change the leveling feel. I think the "down-leveling" mechanic should be tuned so that the reduced level is still at least 1 level above the average level of mobs in an area. (So if the average monster is level 4, a level 10 character in the area should be down-leveled to 5 or 6 at most)

Yes, this will potentially make certain areas too easy. However, there is very little impact on the other two archetypes of players. A Johnny is not going to care as they're there to explore. Leveling is probably last on their mind. A Spike is not even going to be in that area... They are probably where ever the next key to their progression toward "end game" is.

Skyrim did a good job in this respect. Very early on, players realise just how absolutely broken Enchanting and Blacksmithing was. They also realised how with just these two skills a character can become God-like. This gave Timmy's a very easy way to feel "good" about how "powerful" they are. As more people played the game and as more character builds started getting released, those same Timmy's found many other builds that didn't rely on Enchanting and Blacksmithing...

For the Spike's...
The solution is more complicated. Less so that it is complicated to describe, more so that it will likely be complicated to implement...

First and foremost, we need to add clearly defined paths of leveling for them so that they always feel that they are progressing towards their "end game victory".

Good methods are:
- To make events easier to find.
- To make the actions required for triggering events easier to determine.
- Earlier introduction to dungeons and clearer direction/gameplay hints leading towards these dungeons

Second, Spikes need a constant feeling of progression in their ability to attain "end game victory".

Good methods in this respect are:
- Special loot drops after each Event (or at least each Group Event)

The current version of XP Boosters, Resurrection Stones, and Damage Reduction boosters HAVE to be removed from the Gem Store. Early Microtransactions in other games have completely poisoned the minds of your average Spike. To them, the idea of getting XP and DR from a cash store equals unfair advantage. To them, this creates an unfair advantage that creates a resentment not towards those anonymous members of their community who use them, but really towards the Dev's for allowing them.

Really, these items are more designed for Johnny's and Timmy's anyway. Alternatives can also exist that are specifically suited for Johnny's and Timmy's:
- Alternative XP "Booster": An XP storage. It grants bonus XP based on how long ago you've logged onto your account.
- Alternative DR and Alternative Res Stone: Activate to return to any unlocked waypoint and ignore the repair cost and waypoint cost. (Could also be used just for travel purposes)



Anyways, what do you guys think? (Apologies for the TLDR..)

[AJ Wolf]

I can't be a spike, timmy, or johnny because I'm a girl. Also, I think I fall somewhere between Johnny and timmy...i care how my character looks, I love to try a lot of things, i love the story, and yes...I like the elementalist/warrior/necro. But I also like the Mesmer, I'm not a novice MMO player (My D3 wizard has swirling balls of fury that have ripped Diablo a new one). I did follow all dev info releases really carefully, and that has helped me pick-up things a bit faster than some, but that suits me fine. It's allowed me to walk my friends through it all.

I believe this game is targeted to all gamers. For hardcore gamers, there is structured pvp and explorable dudgeons, both of which will drop gear (or items to get gear) which is only available by completing those tasks (several times, usually). I did feel at first that there were some things that needed explanation, but they did a good job adding tool tips that popped up, and I have found if you talk to the NPCs, things make sense. This game is about exploration and discovery, if they put in stop lights and street maps it takes that away. People can play how they want, and if they are confused, they can go ready the wiki, which already has tons of info.

Also, all those boosts you can get in the cash shop will drop in mystic chests, and they have almost zero affect. it's a 50% bonus on kills only. Not quests, not events. The affect is minimal at best. You get more XP running through cities, unlocking way points and crafting. And this not a game about getting to max level to then actually get to play the game. If you get to max level, whoppie for you, now you get to be side kicked down every where you go. Plus, all items in cash shop can be bought with in game gold. If someone gets mad cause someone who works 60 hours a week uses an XP boost, first off...how would they know, and secondly....who cares? In WvW the damage/health of all players will be evened out, and in SvP everyone is maxed out. So what is someone powers through to the end on day one...their loss, not mine. GW has always had XP boosts in game, and no one complained about berzerker scrolls being unfair. The cash shop exists to prevent/discourage gold farms (thank god! if i have to deal with one more bot in JQ I might scream).

Down leveling should not put you over the level of the mobs, it's suppose to be challenging. If they die easily it's boring. If you are in the lvl 4 area and you're a level 10, you're already way better off than the players there because you have utility skills and weapon swapping. You also should be more practiced at dodging and moving, so it should be no problem, unless you run in Leeroy Jenkins style. If you don't learn the skills you need there, you are toast in higher areas. If an area is easy, you're not going to try, and that just builds bad habits. And all types are going to be in the low level areas. You to remember that crafters need copper and green wood, and that's in low level areas. There are also cooking nodes that will be used even on the highest level of cooking.

Also, just because ele is suppose to be the easiest to learn, does not make it the easiest to master. Many devs have said while mesmer is hard to learn, ele and necro are harder to master. The reason the low level content is the way it is, and why you unlock skills they way you do is so you have time to learn the skills. Whenever I unlock a new skill, I take a moment to figure out how it works.

I think there are two very important things to remember here:

This is a game about exploration and discover, not max level and loot.

This is not WoW.

And finally....I don't like the idea of separating people into classes of players; doesn't that happen enough as it is?

[Gorani]

The Spike archetype still has his sPvP for a challenge, he will still be there to gank you in WvW, he will find was to level fast, get ridiculous looking armor, because it is from an epic dungeon...

Timmy & Jimmy have a huge variety of things to do, even if they do not go altoholic with many characters.

I don't think that there is a lot to change for the Devs (as the they probably will not shut down the Gem store, which is the baseline of my thinks I don't agree with). Of course there is a lot of fine tuning to be done, but I am looking forward to the process.

PS: The Elementalist is one of the hardest professions to be played well and no "easy Timmy class"

[hotdogtesting]

The Spike archetype still has his sPvP for a challenge, he will still be there to gank you in WvW, he will find was to level fast, get ridiculous looking armor, because it is from an epic dungeon...

Timmy & Jimmy have a huge variety of things to do, even if they do not go altoholic with many characters.

I don't think that there is a lot to change for the Devs (as the they probably will not shut down the Gem store, which is the baseline of my thinks I don't agree with). Of course there is a lot of fine tuning to be done, but I am looking forward to the process.

PS: The Elementalist is one of the hardest professions to be played well and no "easy Timmy class"

I'd say the Ele is an easy class to play, but hard to master. I notice my buddies who I'd describe as Timmy's seem to forget that there is even such a thing as "atunement".

Also, I was more referring to the PvE, but you and AJ make a good point about PvP. PvP Spikes will definitely find this game a lot more fun than PvE Spikes.

PvP Timmy's probably not. If I were to apply the above archetype, they'd be the sort to go after whatever is consider the most "cookie cutter" and "broken" build/class. Neither of which really exists in GW2 so far.

[cosyfiep]

I, too, am female and not part of any of the target market for video games ...none of these stereotypes fits me either--in gw1 I enjoy playing most classes (minus warrior and sin) and love exploring....for the beta I tried ele and found it --bleh at best, engineer was able to give me the best bang for the little amount of ability I was capable of--and from what little I played, I was actually put OFF by the amount of extra craap there was (crafting, fishing..cookin??)...just too much junk.

[hotdogtesting]

I, too, am female and not part of any of the target market for video games ...none of these stereotypes fits me either--in gw1 I enjoy playing most classes (minus warrior and sin) and love exploring....for the beta I tried ele and found it --bleh at best, engineer was able to give me the best bang for the little amount of ability I was capable of--and from what little I played, I was actually put OFF by the amount of extra craap there was (crafting, fishing..cookin??)...just too much junk.

Honestly, that describes the way that I play and I'd mostly define myself as a "Johnny" type player. That is someone who plays as a way of exploring (or discovery in its many forms).

The definitions that Brother Laz gave while "masculine" are really intended to be gender neutral. They more describe a type of personality than anything else...

[cosyfiep]

the only problem is there is TOO MUCH to do--and this makes some of the game undesirable and really unplayable (for me)...after playing for a day or so--I really have no desire to play again....I know I am older and this might have some impact, but trying to get the hang of using both hands to move (never used wasd in gw1) picking up weapons, that alas my class couldnt use or picking up one I could use and had to start all over again learning new skills--never DID earn a skill point nor get any skills that werent given too me (spent my time watching the game play itself with the 1 key spamming itself)...I was frustrated and couldnt care less what anyone else was doing (not that there was anyone else in my 'world' basically)....

but if you wish to type-cast me as a jeannie--then I hated it and am very glad I havent spent any money on it.

as a casual gamer, I found it too hard to get a hold of and again too much to learn to even do more than watch the game play itself

[shawn]

To be blunt, that's not really a fault of gw2. I mean.. Really, never using wasd ever? You have no idea how many people are reading that and cringing in horror - even pve only people.

[AJ Wolf]

To be blunt, that's not really a fault of gw2. I mean.. Really, never using wasd ever? You have no idea how many people are reading that and cringing in horror - even pve only people.

<---cringing.

cosy, out of curiosity, would you prefer if it was a consul based game with a controller?

[sorudo]

i am just a casual player who likes to take down enemies within tactics, i do care how my character looks like so i can take down my enemy in style.
lore only works with me when the game flows the story trough character progress, gaining knowledge about the story is the most fun trough speech.
i don't care so much about winning, when the story is balanced trough gameplay it's fine by me.

so i would say none of them apply to me, spike is to guru-like, timmy sounds way to bain-dead and jimmy almost fits but it has some pointers that i really don't like.