Great post about pay2win and pay2savetime

[athariel]

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4941497947

It's related directly to Diablo 3, but if you replace the RMAH with cash shop, you will get the same thing that happens in GW2. It's so beautifully written :D

[shawn]

Except none of the cash shop items give you a combat advantage?

So.. I don't get it.

[Alaris]

That's a pretty funny article. <3

I'm with Shawn though, seems GW2 is doing the cash shop properly. By that I mean yes there's some annoying stuff like random dyes but at least it's not pay2win.

D2 farming limits your progress. GW2 10% extra XP barely improves your progress speed which btw is not ever stopped. Big difference.

[athariel]

10% extra XP? Current items are 50% xp boost for one hour or 100% xp boost for 30 second streak. Maybe XP is not a big deal, but 50% magic find is. Same with that crafting boost item.

[Nemeon Lion]

10% extra XP? Current items are 50% xp boost for one hour or 100% xp boost for 30 second streak. Maybe XP is not a big deal, but 50% magic find is. Same with that crafting boost item.

You're doing it wrong bro!

The exp boosts only affect monster kills. Everyone knows that the bulk of your exp comes from events and discovering points of interest. Good luck getting a level 5% faster.

Crafting boosts only affect the experience you get from crafting, and not the quality of the item. Once again, you reach higher crafting levels a bit faster, but who cares, you still need to pass the level requirement to wear the stuff...

[shawn]

How are those problems?

Say someone gets to level 80 10 hours before you do. How does that affect your enjoyment of the game and/or your efficiency in pve or pvp?

[raspberry jam]

How are those problems?

Say someone gets to level 80 10 hours before you do. How does that affect your enjoyment of the game and/or your efficiency in pve or pvp?

It's not about beating people to level 80. It's about you getting to level 80. Let's say it takes 3 months normally for an average player (I took that number out of my butt but it's enough for discussion). And then you have an item that gives a 50% xp boost. If the player buys enough boosts to continuously use them, he will be level 80 in 1.5 months instead of 3. Since he wants to reach level 80 as soon as possible, he will feel a desire to buy those boosts.

This is the exact same thing as actual pay2win in PvP. You can't really call it pay2win in PvE since you will win even without the items. It's more like, pay2savetime, as in the thread title. But it is the same thing: you pay to achieve your goal.

[bearsfwd]

It's not about beating people to level 80. It's about you getting to level 80. Let's say it takes 3 months normally for an average player (I took that number out of my butt but it's enough for discussion). And then you have an item that gives a 50% xp boost. If the player buys enough boosts to continuously use them, he will be level 80 in 1.5 months instead of 3. Since he wants to reach level 80 as soon as possible, he will feel a desire to buy those boosts.

Ok, and what could you possibly achieve for getting to level 80 sooner than me? So what if you feel a little elite because of it, but it doesn't affect me. Besides, it's not like you'll get to level 80 and then faceroll Queensdale. You'll still be down-leveled to like levels 3-15 or so. If someone wants to spend money to do that, then fine. It's not getting them anything special, other than a lighter wallet (if they choose to buy them, and not get gems via gold, and if that's the case, they actually lose nothing).

Not only that, but you DO realize that killing enemies is the least effective way to level up, right? You get maybe what 15 xp? At least it's somewhere around there in the starter areas. A 50% boost to that isn't every impressive. So instead of 15 xp, you are now getting 22 or 23 xp. Boosts don't affect other forms of experience (except the crafting boost is for experience from crafting), so it's not like we're getting 50% xp boost from doing a 2000 xp story quest or something.

This is the exact same thing as actual pay2win in PvP. You can't really call it pay2win in PvE since you will win even without the items. It's more like, pay2savetime, as in the thread title. But it is the same thing: you pay to achieve your goal.

That was Anet's point! Why should those who don't have a lot of time to spend on the game be punished for having a life outside the game. Those who are able to sink ungodly amounts of hours per week shouldn't be at an "advantage" either. We all bought the game, we're all entitled to experience the same content.

On the other hand, it's not like we HAVE to buy the boosts. If you don't like them, don't buy them. There is no advantage to using them. In fact, if you want to call it an advantage, the only thing you'll get from using them is getting to level 80 sooner, and finding better weapons sooner. However, if weapons are done similarly to GW, then sooner or later everyone else will have comparable equipment. So you're supposed advantage will be short lived.

Besides, there will always be people who'll get to level 80 within the first few days of the game being live. There will be those that use boosts, and there will be those that don't. They are all still getting to the same end result though.

[raspberry jam]

Ok, and what could you possibly achieve for getting to level 80 sooner than me? So what if you feel a little elite because of it, but it doesn't affect me. Besides, it's not like you'll get to level 80 and then faceroll Queensdale. You'll still be down-leveled to like levels 3-15 or so. If someone wants to spend money to do that, then fine. It's not getting them anything special, other than a lighter wallet (if they choose to buy them, and not get gems via gold, and if that's the case, they actually lose nothing).

Not only that, but you DO realize that killing enemies is the least effective way to level up, right? You get maybe what 15 xp? At least it's somewhere around there in the starter areas. A 50% boost to that isn't every impressive. So instead of 15 xp, you are now getting 22 or 23 xp. Boosts don't affect other forms of experience (except the crafting boost is for experience from crafting), so it's not like we're getting 50% xp boost from doing a 2000 xp story quest or something.

It's not about beating people to level 80. It's about you getting to level 80. Me getting to level 80 before you doesn't matter at all. Me getting to level 80 sooner than I normally would matters a lot, if my goal is hitting 80.

And for a lot of people, that is the goal.

That was Anet's point! Why should those who don't have a lot of time to spend on the game be punished for having a life outside the game. Those who are able to sink ungodly amounts of hours per week shouldn't be at an "advantage" either. We all bought the game, we're all entitled to experience the same content.

On the other hand, it's not like we HAVE to buy the boosts. If you don't like them, don't buy them. There is no advantage to using them. In fact, if you want to call it an advantage, the only thing you'll get from using them is getting to level 80 sooner, and finding better weapons sooner. However, if weapons are done similarly to GW, then sooner or later everyone else will have comparable equipment. So you're supposed advantage will be short lived.

Besides, there will always be people who'll get to level 80 within the first few days of the game being live. There will be those that use boosts, and there will be those that don't. They are all still getting to the same end result though.

I don't think that it is ANet's point. I think it is ANet's point to make money.

In GW1, people who were able to sink "ungodly" amounts of hours into the game were able to get much more gold and ectos than those who didn't. Yet ANet hunted RMTs and refused to sell gold in the in-game store. Why do you think that is?

The point is not one player's advantage over another player. It is that the player will achieve the goal sooner than he normally would. pay2savetime.

[bearsfwd]

It's not about beating people to level 80. It's about you getting to level 80. Me getting to level 80 before you doesn't matter at all. Me getting to level 80 sooner than I normally would matters a lot, if my goal is hitting 80.

And for a lot of people, that is the goal.

You obviously hate the boosts, so then my question is, why do you even care if other people are willing to use them?

I don't think that it is ANet's point. I think it is ANet's point to make money.

In GW1, people who were able to sink "ungodly" amounts of hours into the game were able to get much more gold and ectos than those who didn't. Yet ANet hunted RMTs and refused to sell gold in the in-game store. Why do you think that is?

The point is not one player's advantage over another player. It is that the player will achieve the goal sooner than he normally would. pay2savetime.

OBVIOUSLY they want to make money. However, I KNOW I read something from Anet stating that they wanted to allow those who were willing to spend money and didn't have a lot of time to be up to par with those who had a lot of time. I'm pretty sure it was on their blog, but I looked back through to April and couldn't find it. Perhaps it was in an interview, but it's not worth my time looking for it because even if I found it, you wouldn't think any differently about it.

And did you ever stop to think that the reason they didn't sell gold in the shop of GW was because the shop was created well AFTER release? Also, people who were farming ectos and other junk were the ones hurting the in game economy. I'm sorry, but when an item costs a stack of ectos or more, that's pretty ridiculous. But, I'm not really sure what this has to do with the boosts.

But again, why does it matter if someone reaches your gold of getting to level 80? Who the hell cares if they use boosts or not. Obviously those who will use them don't care. It's not like Anet is saying, "it is impossible to get to level 80 without using these boosts. If you don't want to buy them, then that's ok, but you won't ever be able to reach level 80 without them."

Since when does other people's character progression in PvE affect you? And that's exactly the very thing you are complaining about here. If someone wants to get to level 80 a little bit faster using boosts, they have nothing to complain about. They chose to do it.

Until I see boosts that are along the lines of damage and defense boosts, then I'll have an issue with boosts. But, for now, the boosts we have a pretty meaningless and harmless. They don't affect you or me, should we choose not to use them. You get one via story missions? Get rid of it, you don't have to use it.