Great post about pay2win and pay2savetime

[raspberry jam]

The amount of xp you get for killing something is completely irrelevant to how well you play. But if it really bothers you that much, buy the boosts and get to 80 20 minutes faster.

Do you also get cheats/trainers for every singleplayer game you play so you can switch on godmode and everything the minute you start playing? I mean, you want to play as well as you can, right?

Only when the trainer is publicly and explicitly sold by the developer of the game. But it never is.

Well, from what I tried, they were really kind of crappy and definitely not worth it. Considering their current pricetag especially, a person would do better to plan out their levelling route really thoughtfully (or whatever other goal) than spending money on these things. If I get them again from PvE rewards, I will likely use them just to get them out of my inventory.

But that's just my experience.

Or you can plan your leveling route carefully and pay for the items. In fact, if you do pay, you should plan carefully in order to get the most out of your money.

So, you think SOME time saver things are ok, but others aren't? Seriously?

Well, I guess we just have to follow rasp as to what time savers are ok to buy and what aren't! /sarcasm

Lol, this is the biggest load of crap I've ever read. How can SOME time savers be ok, but others be unacceptable? They are all time savers, and in fact, the ones you admit you would buy are the ones that don't even require playing. At least the boosts that you hate so much require you to play to make them worth while.

This is a black and white issue. Either time savers are ok or they are not ok. And in my opinion they are ok as they don't give you any true advantage. Any advantage you get from them will be very short lived (especially since the XP boosts are ONLY on kills). In the end if you suck at the game, you'll suck regardless of if you used boosts or not. It's not like you become a good player when you hit level 80.

They are acceptable to me because I personally have no problems whatsoever with money and don't really consider getting to level 80 as success. I consider it an artificial obstacle that I have to get past in order to get to actually play.

What I'm saying is the same thing as you are saying. If time savers are ok, why not let people buy xp chunks? Why not let people buy their way to 80?

The real problem here is that raspberry seems to equate efficient play with reaching level 80 faster than anyone else. Also raspberry equates reaching level 80 with winning.

On the first issue, efficiency is in how the tools are used by the individual, not the tools themselves. If someone buys a bunch of these boosts and then goes and tries to grind xp from mainly killing enemies, they are not being very efficient at all, since most of the xp comes from completing events and personal story or completing objectives in WvW. So therefore it is not strictly about efficiency, it is just a tiny boost in efficiency for an efficient player.

Second issues is that raspberry equates getting to level 80 with winning and thinks that the majority or even a large percentage of us see it that way. If just reaching max level was all that mattered I would never have completed any of the stories in GW1 because I reached level 20, and won. Time to quit and move according to raspberry, nevermind that I might still have 5-10 main story missions left to complete, doesn't matter I already won because I reached level 20. I feel that will be the same situation in GW2, I think I will reach level 80 a fair amount before encountering Zhaitan, does this mean that facing Zhaitan means nothing, because I already won the game. See, I believe that the majority of players don't believe that reaching 80 is the be all end all of the game. I will go outside the MMO world to Dragon Age for another example, I finished the story at level 18 but the max level was 25 so did I win the game or not. According to my understanding of what you are proposing then maybe I didn't because I didn't because I didn't either complete it at a lower level thus being more efficient or I didn't reach max level. To most of us, I believe that reaching max level in an MMO is not equated to winning. I think that mindset is only there for a minority. I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

Hi Deuceswild, it seems you are not confident enough to address me personally.

Anyway, no, not reaching level 80 faster than anyone else. Rather, reaching 80 as soon as possible, considering the limitations of the individual player. Those two are not the same thing: in the first, you are competing with everyone else (which is something that you will very likely lose), in the second, you are competing against yourself, which is usually a healthy thing. But not when you can "win" over yourself by paying money.

You are correct that reaching level 80 is not the goal. But it is definitely a goal for many players. Even more so when you are playing your 13th character and you have seen all the starting stories (really despite the branches it's not that different) and you only care about reaching full potential.

The "rush to max level" mindset might be in a minority here on GWO (though I actually doubt that it will be once people actually play the game; some posters here are incredibly self deluded and change opinions seemingly overnight), but in the general MMO populace it is definitely a very common way of thinking.

I'm pretty confident on ANet about knowing what's acceptable and what's not.

But "acceptable" is not a good metric. 11 million+ people have WoW accounts because that game is "acceptable". It's still a ****ty game.

[kokabel]

This is completely unfounded and based on absolutely no evidence, but I just don't see those cash shop items becoming particularly popular, and any difference they might make to progress will be so negligible that it might as well be discounted. They're too expensive for what they are. The Karma boost might be the only one really worth using, and is the one I didn't get to test - but since what Karma buys (thinking of weapons/armor) isn't overpowered, then it's probably not an issue. Probably.

If the shop sold items that were very similar to the components of a GW1 'conset' then I would be very worried, but there's nothing there like that.

I honestly can't see anyone picking up a 50% more XP boost, and then thinking "woah, this totally changes my gameplay experience", because as already stated, the boost kinda suck and don't apply to the greater sources of XP gain activities. More than likely, they will use it and then kick themselves for wasting the money (unless they got it from PvE, then they will just continue to not buy it).

Hey, perhaps the boosts should only be available up to a certain level, like that summon thing some people had in GW1. That was essentially a purchasable 'boost' to help you get stuff done a bit quicker. Didn't really break the game - didn't really do much, in fact. I'm just not seeing these boosts as horrible for the game - I had expected them to be a lot, LOT worse and made a point to cry about it when they were first announced... but meh. Not so bad - and I'm like the king of the whiners, so if I'm not whining about it, it can't be so bad at all.

[Voiru]

World of Warcraft. Really, you pulled out that example? A 8 year old game that has gathered a bunch of accounts during all that time? At some point, they crossed the line (pre Cataclysm I think) and they started to lose a lot of players.

Undeniably, it's still one of the best games when it comes to end-game PvE content. And that is the very reason for having that many accounts. I just got bored of their content. They just started to rehash it and tried to do it without players noticing.

Rush to max level, by the way, is indeed a pretty common way of thinking. But, I'd say it's more about how great is the content in between the beginning and the 'end'. Using World of Warcraft as an example, it took me quite long to level from 1 to 60. And it took long for many of my friends, as well. It's because we thought the content was awesome and we just did always something else. In fact, I think we spent most of our time doing something else than leveling.

MANY, MANY players back then had the same mindset. Now... well, you're maybe right about it. But I've met plenty of games where the middle ground is just far too boring to enjoy. Feels like it's there because it just has to be.

And if content is like that, I'd rather skip it.

[raspberry jam]

This is completely unfounded and based on absolutely no evidence, but I just don't see those cash shop items becoming particularly popular, and any difference they might make to progress will be so negligible that it might as well be discounted. They're too expensive for what they are. The Karma boost might be the only one really worth using, and is the one I didn't get to test - but since what Karma buys (thinking of weapons/armor) isn't overpowered, then it's probably not an issue. Probably.

If the shop sold items that were very similar to the components of a GW1 'conset' then I would be very worried, but there's nothing there like that.

I honestly can't see anyone picking up a 50% more XP boost, and then thinking "woah, this totally changes my gameplay experience", because as already stated, the boost kinda suck and don't apply to the greater sources of XP gain activities. More than likely, they will use it and then kick themselves for wasting the money (unless they got it from PvE, then they will just continue to not buy it).

Hey, perhaps the boosts should only be available up to a certain level, like that summon thing some people had in GW1. That was essentially a purchasable 'boost' to help you get stuff done a bit quicker. Didn't really break the game - didn't really do much, in fact. I'm just not seeing these boosts as horrible for the game - I had expected them to be a lot, LOT worse and made a point to cry about it when they were first announced... but meh. Not so bad - and I'm like the king of the whiners, so if I'm not whining about it, it can't be so bad at all.

So not only are they wrong, they are also mispriced? Is that what you are saying? Because that is the only thing I read out of that entire post, except for the "I got nothing to hide so I'm ok with putting CCTV cameras in my bedroom" style of sticking your head in the sand. No offense but really.

Anyhow do you agree that it would be a good idea to be able to buy entire chunks of xp? Not just a % gain boost, but actual "5000 xp" chunks?

World of Warcraft. Really, you pulled out that example? A 8 year old game that has gathered a bunch of accounts during all that time? At some point, they crossed the line (pre Cataclysm I think) and they started to lose a lot of players.

Undeniably, it's still one of the best games when it comes to end-game PvE content. And that is the very reason for having that many accounts. I just got bored of their content. They just started to rehash it and tried to do it without players noticing.

Rush to max level, by the way, is indeed a pretty common way of thinking. But, I'd say it's more about how great is the content in between the beginning and the 'end'. Using World of Warcraft as an example, it took me quite long to level from 1 to 60. And it took long for many of my friends, as well. It's because we thought the content was awesome and we just did always something else. In fact, I think we spent most of our time doing something else than leveling.

MANY, MANY players back then had the same mindset. Now... well, you're maybe right about it. But I've met plenty of games where the middle ground is just far too boring to enjoy. Feels like it's there because it just has to be.

And if content is like that, I'd rather skip it.

WoW is ****ing horrible and even if you only count active accounts, it's still in the millions. Which is why I mentioned it, because horrible as it is, it's also acceptable.

Anyway, you touch upon one interesting thing. Yes. It is there because it has to be, because like any product, MMOs are money machines and they make money by making people keep playing.
Yes, boring content would be better to skip. The very reason why MMO makers put in levels is that it's easier to make players feel content by rewarding them with level ups than constructing content that will make players feel content by just playing it. And even if you manage that, it's hard to make actually good content that many players like, while it's easy to make level systems that many players like, simply because everyone gets that little kick when they see the level up thing go off and everyone feels good about adding a little bit more capability to your character.

Level/unlock systems is just cheap as hell design that make people stick to going through generic, mass-produced content by promising a carrot at the end that the player was actually just artificially restricted from getting the entire time. The real GW1 character is a level 20 character. The real WoW character is level 85 or whatever it is now. The real GW2 character is level 80. And so on.

If MMO devs didn't have level systems to fall back on, they would be forced to make actually interesting content.

[kokabel]

So not only are they wrong, they are also mispriced? Is that what you are saying? Because that is the only thing I read out of that entire post, except for the "I got nothing to hide so I'm ok with putting CCTV cameras in my bedroom" style of sticking your head in the sand. No offense but really.

No offense but really, that is the worst analogy in the world of bad analogies. But I know you're like, master level of fallacies so, I'll let it slide, because you're a fluffy little defender of the righteous (and this is not trolling, just affection, so please don't hurt me).

A more appropriate analogy would be something like buying a certificate of educational achievement without actually studying for it, or someone getting a position in a field of work they are not qualified for. It's not good, absolutely not; but ultimately backfires because without the study or dedication, the certificate/position means nothing, and the person will screw it up through the fact they don't know ****.

So if a person bought themselves boosts and got max level/endgame much sooner than intended, they would indeed appear to have gained something of value, but if they haven't learned anything about playing the game, they are ultimately only screwing themselves. More than that, they will be found out as being incompetent and people just won't want to play nice with them, and the actually challenging content will be out of bounds for them purely on the grounds that they failed to learn to play well enough to tackle it.

And yeah, they are badly priced. Or gems are badly priced, rather, though I suppose that can be subject to change.

Anyhow do you agree that it would be a good idea to be able to buy entire chunks of xp? Not just a % gain boost, but actual "5000 xp" chunks?

See above.

It wouldn't be okay, but it wouldn't be world breaking either. You would just be screwing yourself over if you bought max level without learning the game; resulting in an epic waste of money (money they surely spent time on to earn...), and an inability to grasp the foundational aspects of gameplay. In other words - let them do it, so I can laugh at the people who try to buy their way to max level.

Tbh, I do live in hope that the boost items will be removed from the cash shop eventually out of sheer unpopularity due to their crappiness. Especially if they get replaced with more shiny cosmetic stuff, because that's what I like to waste money on. I don't like the boosts and don't see a need for them, but I'm not upset about them either - apathetic perhaps, plus they just don't seem to me to be the way to encourage players to part with their pennies, especially knowing how cosmetically driven GW players can be.

Perhaps you could clearly outline exactly where you think the boosts will interfere and how? Because running through various scenarios in my head and I can't think of where/when buying boosts would result so badly as you are implying.

[raspberry jam]

No offense but really, that is the worst analogy in the world of bad analogies. But I know you're like, master level of fallacies so, I'll let it slide, because you're a fluffy little defender of the righteous (and this is not trolling, just affection, so please don't hurt me).

A more appropriate analogy would be something like buying a certificate of educational achievement without actually studying for it, or someone getting a position in a field of work they are not qualified for. It's not good, absolutely not; but ultimately backfires because without the study or dedication, the certificate/position means nothing, and the person will screw it up through the fact they don't know ****.

So if a person bought themselves boosts and got max level/endgame much sooner than intended, they would indeed appear to have gained something of value, but if they haven't learned anything about playing the game, they are ultimately only screwing themselves. More than that, they will be found out as being incompetent and people just won't want to play nice with them, and the actually challenging content will be out of bounds for them purely on the grounds that they failed to learn to play well enough to tackle it.

And yeah, they are badly priced. Or gems are badly priced, rather, though I suppose that can be subject to change.

I am the defender of the righteous, so I see your comment as a compliment.

But yes, that (yours) would be the correct analogy - if being high (or max) level would mean that you know anything about the game. It doesn't. It just means that you have X xp. Your actual experience as a player, and the amount by which you absorbed that experience into knowledge, can and will differ widely. Someone who is level 35 might know far more about the mechanics of the game than someone who is level 80.

And certainly, if you have previously played an asura elementalist and knows everything there is to know about elementalists, you don't lose that knowledge just because you create a brand new (level 1) sylvari elementalist.

The only "value" character level represent is the xp amount of the character itself, and the raw power/skill slots/etc inherent in the level. Thus your analogy is wrong.

See above.

It wouldn't be okay, but it wouldn't be world breaking either. You would just be screwing yourself over if you bought max level without learning the game; resulting in an epic waste of money (money they surely spent time on to earn...), and an inability to grasp the foundational aspects of gameplay. In other words - let them do it, so I can laugh at the people who try to buy their way to max level.

Tbh, I do live in hope that the boost items will be removed from the cash shop eventually out of sheer unpopularity due to their crappiness. Especially if they get replaced with more shiny cosmetic stuff, because that's what I like to waste money on. I don't like the boosts and don't see a need for them, but I'm not upset about them either - apathetic perhaps, plus they just don't seem to me to be the way to encourage players to part with their pennies, especially knowing how cosmetically driven GW players can be.

Installing CCTV cameras in your bedroom wouldn't be a big deal either, because you have nothing to hide.

Anyway, as bearsfwd said, if you are ok with one time saver, why not another? You don't learn the game by leveling, you learn the game by playing it, and there's nothing to say you can't play at level 80 instead of at level 1. Especially with ANet's flawless downscaling system, you would still be able to play in early areas that are designed to teach you the game, with the option to skip any content you deem too boring to bother with. Right?

Perhaps you could clearly outline exactly where you think the boosts will interfere and how? Because running through various scenarios in my head and I can't think of where/when buying boosts would result so badly as you are implying.

You get 50% more xp for kills. Whenever people kill a monster, it means that their progress in doing so is 33% less than it would need to be. Monster kill xp isn't a large part of the total, but you do kill a lot of stuff while playing, and it would feel to be adding up. Let's say for argument's sake that a 50% boost on all mob kills is about a 10% boost on your total xp intake over any given longer period of time.

That means that without boosts, you're progressing at about 91% of the speed you would with boosts. Is that a huge percentage? Consider back in the day when people would farm for days to afford a 20/20 sundering mod to replace the 19/20 that they already had, increasing their DPS with an ever so tiny amount, less than 9% at least. Yes a 9% decrease in speed is a big thing and it will make weak souls pay (or feel the need to pay) for the boosts.

[bearsfwd]

Anyway, as bearsfwd said, if you are ok with one time saver, why not another? You don't learn the game by leveling, you learn the game by playing it, and there's nothing to say you can't play at level 80 instead of at level 1. Especially with ANet's flawless downscaling system, you would still be able to play in early areas that are designed to teach you the game, with the option to skip any content you deem too boring to bother with. Right?

The difference between the current boosts and just straight up selling chunks of XP is that at least with the boosts, you still have to play through the game to get to level 80, thus learning the game along the way. Obviously, you'll play through it a bit quicker, but you are still playing through it. Buying chunks of xp means that you can be level 80 and have NEVER played any of the content, therefore not learning the game (when talking about PvE).

As far as the boosts are concerned, I'm all for them being removed, with the reason of they just plain suck and not because they give an unfair advantage (since they don't).

[Alaris]

More importantly, the current boosts require you to play normally. You don't need to spend as much time in a given place (because you level up faster for example) but you still need to go through essentially the same content with the same gear as if you played normally. In fact, you will end up (statistically speaking) with gear that is a bit below average compared to someone playing normally for the same level, because you're spending less time killing mobs each level.

[BladeDVD]

That means that without boosts, you're progressing at about 91% of the speed you would with boosts. Is that a huge percentage? Consider back in the day when people would farm for days to afford a 20/20 sundering mod to replace the 19/20 that they already had, increasing their DPS with an ever so tiny amount, less than 9% at least. Yes a 9% decrease in speed is a big thing and it will make weak souls pay (or feel the need to pay) for the boosts.

The mod will always give you a benefit, but leveling up ends at 80. On the scale of bad things to do, exp. boosts aren't very high on the list. Getting to 80 is pretty far from being the only goal in playing the game and once reached you move on to other content and even when getting to lvl 80 you're still playing content.

Is it a bit of a cheat the way we look at buying advantage in the Western world? Yeah, sure, a little bit, but not enough for most people to get upset over. And hardly the equivalent of the effect of buying armor/weapon improvements that can't be had in game for PVP.

[raspberry jam]

The difference between the current boosts and just straight up selling chunks of XP is that at least with the boosts, you still have to play through the game to get to level 80, thus learning the game along the way. Obviously, you'll play through it a bit quicker, but you are still playing through it. Buying chunks of xp means that you can be level 80 and have NEVER played any of the content, therefore not learning the game (when talking about PvE).

And why would you care if someone else who is level 80 never played any of the content? Why would you care if someone else saved time on reaching 80?

Also, see above: you learn by playing, not by leveling.

More importantly, the current boosts require you to play normally. You don't need to spend as much time in a given place (because you level up faster for example) but you still need to go through essentially the same content with the same gear as if you played normally. In fact, you will end up (statistically speaking) with gear that is a bit below average compared to someone playing normally for the same level, because you're spending less time killing mobs each level.

Why would this matter in any way whatsoever?

The mod will always give you a benefit, but leveling up ends at 80. On the scale of bad things to do, exp. boosts aren't very high on the list. Getting to 80 is pretty far from being the only goal in playing the game and once reached you move on to other content and even when getting to lvl 80 you're still playing content.

Is it a bit of a cheat the way we look at buying advantage in the Western world? Yeah, sure, a little bit, but not enough for most people to get upset over. And hardly the equivalent of the effect of buying armor/weapon improvements that can't be had in game for PVP.

It has already been show earlier in this thread that getting to 80 is a major goal, even more so when you are playing other character than your first.

Actually it is the exact same thing as armor or weapon improvements (so-called "pay2win" even though they don't necessarily mean auto-win) for PvP. This has also already been shown earlier in the thread.

Also, who knows what else xp will be used for? Could we have known when GW1 was released that xp would be used for the survivor title?