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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by BladeDVD View Post
    Well, yes, of course. But I thought we were talking about Guild Wars and having a discussion from the perspective of introducing pay2win/pay2save time items into a known game model that doesn't include them. Or (re: PVP) where the cost for the boosts would be considered "extra" vs. WoTs where it seems it's more like paying for extra content, or an alternate way of paying for content (ie, the standard free2play model).
    But that's the crux of the discussion. If Anet chose to include play2win/play2savetime, then they chose to change their model. And as much as you like to protest that the "known game model that doesn't include them", they already include items that can be considered extra content (extra storage, extra character slots). To me there seems to be a lot of moral handwaving to say this type of p2w/p2st is ok, but that type isn't. IMO if a company chooses to include some p2w/p2st items, then they've already taken their first steps toward that model. To argue that one step is ok, but two steps isn't just seems a little silly to me. If they sell XP boosters, then they might as well sell HP bosters, Attack boosters, and golden bullets. Otherwise it's just drawing arbitrary lines for some vaguely defined right-or-wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by BladeDVD View Post
    I do think I now see what you mean, but I still have to disagree with your conclusion. As you say, they speed up getting to the fun, but until the speed up gets to a point where it doesn't make sense to not use them to the average player, it's still a pay2save time (for yourself) rather than pay2win, as people can still achieve the same enjoyment without the items, it will just take them a little bit longer. As long as that "little bit longer" doesn't feel unfair or make you feel like you are wasting your time by doing it just by in-game methods, then it doesn't reduce your own fun no matter which method you use.
    But then that goes back to the "if it doesn't affect others" argument. In that case, why is pay2win any more "evil" than pay2savetime, "as people can still achieve the same enjoyment without the items, it will just take them a little bit longer"?


    -T

  2. #142
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    On pay2savetime: it's ok if for example (1) the game itself is fun and there's not a big reason to want to save time in the first place, (2) the difference between saving time or saving money isn't big.

    On bags, storage, etc, I am not a fan and if anything, I'd rather pay for unlocks rather than per item. I do hope we can buy those within the game (not via store gems) but we'll see. But as this gives a storage benefit but not a game benefit, it's not nearly as bad as pay2win.
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  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by teina View Post
    But that's the crux of the discussion. If Anet chose to include play2win/play2savetime, then they chose to change their model. And as much as you like to protest that the "known game model that doesn't include them", they already include items that can be considered extra content (extra storage, extra character slots). To me there seems to be a lot of moral handwaving to say this type of p2w/p2st is ok, but that type isn't. IMO if a company chooses to include some p2w/p2st items, then they've already taken their first steps toward that model. To argue that one step is ok, but two steps isn't just seems a little silly to me. If they sell XP boosters, then they might as well sell HP bosters, Attack boosters, and golden bullets. Otherwise it's just drawing arbitrary lines for some vaguely defined right-or-wrong.
    Anet is not adding pay2win, just pay2save time. Jam is arguing they are the same, and I and Alaris disagree. You and Jam (in the quotes I was responding to) are begging that question is all I am saying essentially.

    The storage would be a good argument except that we already had this in GW1 and most people were ok with it (ie, didn't consider it to be a pay2win situation). (And GW2 really comes with a lot more storage than GW1 did.)

    And it's not an "arbitrary line," it's the same stance they've taken since they made GW1 8 years ago plus a few pay2save time items. Nothing that gives people who don't buy cash shop items an unfair advantage in game.

    Which brings me to another thought I had about Jam's p2w=p2st argument. The a big part of the reason that p2w is not liked is that players feel that there are benefits to other players out of their reach due to non-in-game reasons. P2st items, as Jam has consistently pointed out, do not have that component to them and I think that is a key component of what makes p2w something that people don't like, which is why p2st stuff isn't as big a deal.

    But then that goes back to the "if it doesn't affect others" argument. In that case, why is pay2win any more "evil" than pay2savetime, "as people can still achieve the same enjoyment without the items, it will just take them a little bit longer"?
    I'm think I might be misunderstanding you here. It sounds like you're saying that you can still win at otherwise balanced PVP without buying the pay2win items? PVP after all, is about winning ultimately. The journey is certainly part of it, but the idea is that you will be able to win based on skill. If pay2win gives an unfair advantage (which, by definition it must) then you won't be able to. So the player who doesn't get the p2w stuff can't enjoy the game, whereas a player who doesn't get p2st items still can. (Unless the time saved is so great that it makes you feel like you're just wasting your time doing it the in game way, which is the only way I can see where p2st=p2w.)

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by BladeDVD View Post
    And it's not an "arbitrary line," it's the same stance they've taken since they made GW1 8 years ago plus a few pay2save time items. Nothing that gives people who don't buy cash shop items an unfair advantage in game.
    So, they had XP boosts in the cash shop 8 years ago? And it's the "plus a few pay2save time items" that makes it arbitrary. What makes those items ok but not, say, attack boosts? What makes 50% XP boost ok, but not 100%? What make Magic Find Boost ok, but not credit drop boosts?

    Quote Originally Posted by BladeDVD View Post
    Which brings me to another thought I had about Jam's p2w=p2st argument. The a big part of the reason that p2w is not liked is that players feel that there are benefits to other players out of their reach due to non-in-game reasons. P2st items, as Jam has consistently pointed out, do not have that component to them and I think that is a key component of what makes p2w something that people don't like, which is why p2st stuff isn't as big a deal.
    So an insta-level-80 PvE cash item is "not a big deal"? Obviously it saves time. Or is there some arbitrary "this much is ok, but not that much"? Yet it seems many in this thread would be upset if insta-80 is available for purchase.

    I'm think I might be misunderstanding you here. It sounds like you're saying that you can still win at otherwise balanced PVP without buying the pay2win items? PVP after all, is about winning ultimately. The journey is certainly part of it, but the idea is that you will be able to win based on skill. If pay2win gives an unfair advantage (which, by definition it must) then you won't be able to. So the player who doesn't get the p2w stuff can't enjoy the game, whereas a player who doesn't get p2st items still can. (Unless the time saved is so great that it makes you feel like you're just wasting your time doing it the in game way, which is the only way I can see where p2st=p2w.)
    I believe Jam's point is PvE only, that in PvE p2w=p2st, and my comment you quoted is therefore also applied to PvE. I only brought up PvP game earlier in the thread because of Alaris' comments about paying for bullets. So far, the only defense of XP boost in PvE are either "it doesn't affect other people, so it's ok" or "it's so small, it's ok". But both of these arguments can be applied to other boosts that people seem to have issues with, like combat boosts.

    -T

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by teina View Post
    the only defense of XP boost in PvE are either "it doesn't affect other people, so it's ok" or "it's so small, it's ok". But both of these arguments can be applied to other boosts that people seem to have issues with, like combat boosts.
    Combat boosts are not OK.

    1) others may require that you use combat boosts to join endgame parties
    2) you might not be able to complete some content without combat boosts
    3) it's clearly pay2win because it directly affects your likelihood of success at anything combat you do
    4) it affects farming speed.

    These three arguments don't work against XP boosts, because (1) no party would ask for them, (2) it doesn't affect your ability to succeed, (3) it's not pay2win, and (4) it does not affect farming aside for XP farming. And yes, I know 2-3 are redundant, but it's worth saying twice.

    As for stuff that gives items, my discontent grows when those items give combat boosts or include stats-enhancements, but I mind a lot less when it's cosmetic stuff.
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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by teina View Post
    So, they had XP boosts in the cash shop 8 years ago? And it's the "plus a few pay2save time items" that makes it arbitrary. What makes those items ok but not, say, attack boosts? What makes 50% XP boost ok, but not 100%? What make Magic Find Boost ok, but not credit drop boosts?
    As you noted, the 8 years ago comment was about the new p2st stuff. But the line is still the same, nothing that gives an unfair advantage. Attack boosts would give an unfair advantage to those who did not participate in the cash shop. That's the goal, how it is reached is arbitrary though because it depends on what the player base and the developers consider unfair. That's just going to be a judgement call, but the goal is defined and people will just have to judge for themselves whether Anet has succeeded or not. Based on how they've handled similar things for the last 8 years, I have no problem giving them the benefit of the doubt until they show otherwise.

    So an insta-level-80 PvE cash item is "not a big deal"? Obviously it saves time. Or is there some arbitrary "this much is ok, but not that much"? Yet it seems many in this thread would be upset if insta-80 is available for purchase.
    Not to me, but my opinion that levels in RPG games are stupid is a minority one, and most players would not consider that fair (or so we assume, perhaps they would not, I don't have a way to get this kind of information, however, there has not been a huge outcry over the lvl 80 change, so I think it is safe to say it's not that unpopular). Arbitrary-ness was addressed above.



    I believe Jam's point is PvE only, that in PvE p2w=p2st, and my comment you quoted is therefore also applied to PvE. I only brought up PvP game earlier in the thread because of Alaris' comments about paying for bullets. So far, the only defense of XP boost in PvE are either "it doesn't affect other people, so it's ok" or "it's so small, it's ok". But both of these arguments can be applied to other boosts that people seem to have issues with, like combat boosts.

    -T
    P2w is bad (in part) because it does affect others ability to enjoy the game, and because in an otherwise balanced pvp contest there is no such thing a boost so small it doesn't affect the outcome. So I disagree that those arguments can be applied to combat boosts. If your PVP example is invalid, then it doesn't work to support your PVE argument.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by BladeDVD View Post
    my opinion that levels in RPG games are stupid is a minority one
    In the community at large, perhaps, I don't know... but in the forum here at least a lot of people said that levels are stupid, me included. Even if I can see good reason why they implemented that, I still don't like them. But at least they implemented them in a way that isn't too stupid ;)
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  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    In the community at large, perhaps, I don't know... but in the forum here at least a lot of people said that levels are stupid, me included. Even if I can see good reason why they implemented that, I still don't like them. But at least they implemented them in a way that isn't too stupid ;)
    Yes, you're right of course on all points. I was talking in the community at large, not just here, I should have emphasized that the objections were relatively muted as opposed compared to other objections to other proposed game changes as opposed to implying they just weren't there.

  9. #149
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    Levels add up a sense of achievement. If you understand and overlook their purpose of being just brain candy for you, you're going to find them sort of stupid.

    One game, I play now, is kind of funny. I need to have a certain level in order to unlock a specific upgrade. Getting that level is very small achievement compared to other things required to get that upgrade. Getting that level requires me to go on through endless amounts of grind, repeating the same content over and over. Getting the other requirements would possibly take longer than the level itself, unless I did the most challenging content which gives me more of the required items.

    That type of system is stupid. "Yay, I gained a level. Now I can unlock these upgrades with these other things that I had a long time ago."

    In Guild Wars 2, levels do serve a few purposes. Not only brain candy, but effective at that too. They make you advance the content in a specific fashion. You don't just buy the best weapons at the beginning and run through the last part of the content. Or worse, pick up best weapons from auction house and speedrun through the (boring with that much advantages) main quest that would still be mandatory.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Combat boosts are not OK.

    1) others may require that you use combat boosts to join endgame parties
    2) you might not be able to complete some content without combat boosts
    3) it's clearly pay2win because it directly affects your likelihood of success at anything combat you do
    4) it affects farming speed.
    Yet they already exist in game as craftable items. Having them in the cash store would just save people time who don't want to spend the time to craft, or to find someone who's selling. In fact, since you can exchange gems for craftable items, and you can buy gems via cash, then by your definition GW2 is already pay2win.

    -T

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