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  1. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Good point about personal goal vs by design. However, a lot of content goes into gray zone. For example, a lot of players decide against going for titles or GWAMM, as that stuff used to bring you nothing but a title, and even the HoM is a cosmetic reward at best in a separate game. I'd argue though that all this stuff is side-stepping from the argument of pay2win vs pay2savetime as any goal that can be bought can be looked at using the pay2win vs pay2savetime.

    Then you wrote a long story about how levels make you stronger... ok, I agree with that, no need to write a bible on the topic. But even scaling aside, being higher level is moot when you use that to access higher-level content. You don't win more, you just win in a different place. Those who are concerned about reaching level 80 are generally not going to waste time in lower-level areas, they will skip to the next area as soon as they can handle it. But fine, it's a goal, and it can be in-part bought.

    The distinction you avoid talking about is whether the in-store stuff changes your probability of success vs just the time required to succeed. The former is pay2win and quite understandably upsets people, the latter is pay2savetime, and many don't mind this or consider it a very minor evil. There is nothing in the cash shop that improves your chances of success that I can think of. All those items do, if anything, is reduce the time required to get to your goal.

    I don't recall people saying "they want to reach level 80 in X hours or less". No. They just want to reach level 80. Sure they want to get there fast, but the actual speed is not the goal itself.
    Cosmetic reward, well, you'll get items, right? Not just a skin. Of course, you will probably be able to find items of equal stats somewhere else in game. It's in no way side-stepping though. Pay2savetime in PvE is straight up the same thing as pay2win in PvP. I "wrote a bible" because it's completely obvious, and you seem to be the only one not understanding how important of a goal max level is for PvE. So I thought I'd explain it to you in a few different ways, hoping that it'd click in place for you - but of course not, you're more interested in being obtuse.

    In PvE, the probability of eventual success is 100%. Stuff is designed to be beaten (for example, xp only goes upward, so if all else fails, just kill an easy enemy over and over), so of course it will be, given enough time. The only thing you can do is make it go faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by BladeDVD View Post
    Just because one can argue that there is equal demand for two things doesn't mean they will have equal results.

    I don't see how xp boosts equate to pay to win based on what we've seen in the game and Anet's past history on pay to win items in GW1. Getting to lvl 80 is a finite goal, unlike winning at PVP, and the xp boosts do not dramatically shorten the leveling process.

    If you're just worried that Anet's going to turn it into a pay to win item, I get that, but they've been pretty good since the cash shop first came out in GW1, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    My only problem with a cash shop is if they put things in it that allow some one to do things in game that I can't do with out the cash shop, or can't do in what I consider a reasonable amount of time. So being able to buy an elite armor skin for $50 vs a month of normal, if focused, game play I wouldn't have a problem with. $50 for XP boosts that cut in half the time to get to level 80 and it took six months to get to level 80, that I would have a problem with.
    See my reply to Alaris to see why pay2savetime in PvE = pay2win in PvP.

    For the rest of your post, I can't make sense of what you are saying. I fail to see how persistent vs. finite goals would matter. Are you saying that the xp booster would be a problem for you if there was an infinite level "cap" instead of 80 being the max level?
    They put in elite armor skins in the GW1 cash shop, skins that were only obtainable through said cash shop. Was that a problem for you?

    I didn't make the following image, but I think most of it is true. I do disagree on the character slots and the bank tabs; those are ok to sell I think. Not the bag slots though.


  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    (...)
    Disagree that PvE is designed to be 100% success. People got stuck in Diablo 3 inferno. It's PvE, but that particular one was designed to make people fail and get stuck. I think it's great, or at least it would be without the RMAH. With the RMAH allowing you to pay2win, it's quite terrible.

    As you say, PvE in GW2 is 100% success (which we don't know because we have not played endgame yet) and even then, dungeons are not 100% success, at least not for everyone. And then what use are those cash shop items for getting unstuck?

    Repair canister - does not work in dungeons
    Rez orb - not much of a help here...?
    Craft boost? Exp boost? Karma boost? Useless.
    Magic find could potentially work, but 10% is not much help compared to normal farming.
    Inventory space is pretty useless in combat.

    These things don't help you get unstuck. I don't see a think I would spend $ on if my problem was being stuck in a dungeon.

    Btw thanks for posting the pic.

    Cash shop skins are fine for me if they're not tied to stats. XP boost would be a problem if there was a special reward tied to getting to level 80 within a given time limit. I hope you can craft 12 slot bags.
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  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    Cosmetic reward, well, you'll get items, right? Not just a skin. Of course, you will probably be able to find items of equal stats somewhere else in game. It's in no way side-stepping though. Pay2savetime in PvE is straight up the same thing as pay2win in PvP. I "wrote a bible" because it's completely obvious, and you seem to be the only one not understanding how important of a goal max level is for PvE. So I thought I'd explain it to you in a few different ways, hoping that it'd click in place for you - but of course not, you're more interested in being obtuse.

    In PvE, the probability of eventual success is 100%. Stuff is designed to be beaten (for example, xp only goes upward, so if all else fails, just kill an easy enemy over and over), so of course it will be, given enough time. The only thing you can do is make it go faster.

    See my reply to Alaris to see why pay2savetime in PvE = pay2win in PvP.
    Ok, that makes more sense. I disagree with how you're using the word win, it seems.

    To me, playing games is about having fun. If I have fun with the game on my terms, then I win.

    When you play PVP, the fun generally comes from winning according to the rules, so you expect the rules to enforce a certain levelness of playing field. For the most part, we think of that as win conditions dependent on skill vs. blind luck or who has more money or who has the better bots. That's why cash shop benefits for PVP are considered pay2win.

    When you play PVE though, the fun comes from being entertained by the game. Yes, largely through eventual success, but also from enjoyment of the story, playing with others (for MMOs), cool skills, being made to feel powerful. Things that save you time to reach those goals may get you to the fun faster than others, but as long as you don't get there in what feels like an unfairly short amount of time, most people won't care that others get to the fun before they do. Even without the XP boosts, lots of people will get to lvl 80 before others. Did they win more than the slower players? If 20 people get there first instead of 50, does that ruin your PVE fun and make the game a loser? I don't think so.

    That's why I make a point of how much of a difference the XP boost makes. If they got people to lvl 80 in 1 day vs 1 month, then there would likely be a real feeling among the PVE player base that Anet's letting rich people unfairly experience fun content before the less fortunate can.

    Though, to be honest, I agree with Akirai. I really wasn't happy when they went from 20 lvls to 80 just for all the nuts who complained about there not being enough levels in GW1. I'd spend $5 or so be leveled up to 80 right away. But there are a lot of people for whom levels are important, unfortunately. Either way, I just don't think they see leveling boosts as black and white as you do.

  4. #134
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    Consider what would be losing in PvE.

    Losing would be not being able to progress. As in there's a mission or monster you can't kill, and you can't progress without killing it. That rarely ever happens in MMORPGs, so I'll borrow from other games.

    In Radiant Defense (Android game), level 7 is very hard and level 9 is impossible without the stuff you can buy. So to win, i.e. complete the game, you literally have to pay. In Guild Wars 1, though, you don't really need heroes to do missions in Prophecies, you can use henchmen or other players.

    In GW2, you're not a loser because you got to level 80 a bit later than other people. You still get your win, and for free (not including the cost of the game, which everyone has to pay so that's moot).

    -----

    Pay2savetime is also unacceptable if the time it takes without paying is too long. For me a lot of it depends on the degree, rather than the principle.
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  5. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Disagree that PvE is designed to be 100% success. People got stuck in Diablo 3 inferno. It's PvE, but that particular one was designed to make people fail and get stuck. I think it's great, or at least it would be without the RMAH. With the RMAH allowing you to pay2win, it's quite terrible.

    As you say, PvE in GW2 is 100% success (which we don't know because we have not played endgame yet) and even then, dungeons are not 100% success, at least not for everyone. And then what use are those cash shop items for getting unstuck?

    Repair canister - does not work in dungeons
    Rez orb - not much of a help here...?
    Craft boost? Exp boost? Karma boost? Useless.
    Magic find could potentially work, but 10% is not much help compared to normal farming.
    Inventory space is pretty useless in combat.

    These things don't help you get unstuck. I don't see a think I would spend $ on if my problem was being stuck in a dungeon.

    Btw thanks for posting the pic.

    Cash shop skins are fine for me if they're not tied to stats. XP boost would be a problem if there was a special reward tied to getting to level 80 within a given time limit. I hope you can craft 12 slot bags.
    Sure, people get stuck in D3 inferno. Because they didn't buy enough things from the auction house. That's by design as well. GW2 isn't like that, though: you'll be able to get through any part of PvE without buying anything. All you need is time. And that you can buy.

    The logical part of my post, the one with the actual questions and discussion, wasn't aimed at you.

    Quote Originally Posted by BladeDVD View Post
    Ok, that makes more sense. I disagree with how you're using the word win, it seems.

    To me, playing games is about having fun. If I have fun with the game on my terms, then I win.

    When you play PVP, the fun generally comes from winning according to the rules, so you expect the rules to enforce a certain levelness of playing field. For the most part, we think of that as win conditions dependent on skill vs. blind luck or who has more money or who has the better bots. That's why cash shop benefits for PVP are considered pay2win.

    When you play PVE though, the fun comes from being entertained by the game. Yes, largely through eventual success, but also from enjoyment of the story, playing with others (for MMOs), cool skills, being made to feel powerful. Things that save you time to reach those goals may get you to the fun faster than others, but as long as you don't get there in what feels like an unfairly short amount of time, most people won't care that others get to the fun before they do. Even without the XP boosts, lots of people will get to lvl 80 before others. Did they win more than the slower players? If 20 people get there first instead of 50, does that ruin your PVE fun and make the game a loser? I don't think so.

    That's why I make a point of how much of a difference the XP boost makes. If they got people to lvl 80 in 1 day vs 1 month, then there would likely be a real feeling among the PVE player base that Anet's letting rich people unfairly experience fun content before the less fortunate can.

    Though, to be honest, I agree with Akirai. I really wasn't happy when they went from 20 lvls to 80 just for all the nuts who complained about there not being enough levels in GW1. I'd spend $5 or so be leveled up to 80 right away. But there are a lot of people for whom levels are important, unfortunately. Either way, I just don't think they see leveling boosts as black and white as you do.
    But in a PvP game with pay2win items, using those items are legal according to the rules. If you don't have the items, you will be playing artificially worse. In a pay2win PvP game, paying is part of the game, just like paying a subscription fee for WoW is.

    As I said earlier, it's not about "getting to the fun" faster than someone else. It's about getting to the fun faster than you would if you didn't pay.

    Let's not trick ourselves: PvE is about achieving goals (both the process and the end). When you are going into a dragon's den to kill it, it's about the end fight because that's your entire reason for going in there, but it's also about the path getting there.
    However, for some goals the process kind of isn't important. Leveling is such a goal: you don't care about going from 328768 xp to 328769 xp. You care about the one xp point that will get you to the next level, or to the max level.

    It's not about how much boost these items give. It's about that they give a boost.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    The logical part of my post, the one with the actual questions and discussion, wasn't aimed at you.


    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    But in a PvP game with pay2win items
    There was a game where they wanted players to pay for bullets. They scrapped that idea, but I believe the game failed anyway because let's face it, if you can announce that idea to the public, you don't have the sharpest minds on board.
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  7. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    There was a game where they wanted players to pay for bullets. They scrapped that idea, but I believe the game failed anyway because let's face it, if you can announce that idea to the public, you don't have the sharpest minds on board.
    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...digit-millions

    World of Tanks have gold bullets for sale for real world money. They are making tens of millions of dollars a month in revenue. They have hundreds of employees in multiple countries across the world. "Pay for bullets" does not equal "you don't have the sharpest minds on board."

    What they manage is that gold bullets are too expensive to use for casual play, but for serious games (Clan Wars), they're almost required to be competitive. And when you win Clan Wars, you earn gold for your clan, so you can get an in-game return on your real cash investment. It's no different than a buy-in fee for, say, poker tournaments in rl.

    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    But in a PvP game with pay2win items, using those items are legal according to the rules. If you don't have the items, you will be playing artificially worse. In a pay2win PvP game, paying is part of the game, just like paying a subscription fee for WoW is.
    That is exactly it. You pay a certain cost to use a feature of the game (in WoT's case, Clan Wars PvP). Having gold bullets doesn't guarantee you'd win, you still have to compete with other people who've also bought gold bullets. It is no different than subscriptions, or buying contents, or buying storage and character slots. It is a play fee. At least with the gold bullets, you can still play without it, albeit at a lower efficiency.

    -T
    Last edited by teina; 28-07-2012 at 21:29.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by teina View Post
    "Pay for bullets" does not equal "you don't have the sharpest minds on board."
    The example I was referring to wasn't "pay for gold bullets", but rather "pay for every single bullet". Hence my comment about sharpest minds.

    Yes, it's not a huge difference, but it's a difference that matters.
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  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    There was a game where they wanted players to pay for bullets. They scrapped that idea, but I believe the game failed anyway because let's face it, if you can announce that idea to the public, you don't have the sharpest minds on board.
    CO has crafting materials for sale, tells you exactly how greedy they are.
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  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by teina View Post
    [Re: Word of Tanks] That is exactly it. You pay a certain cost to use a feature of the game (in WoT's case, Clan Wars PvP). Having gold bullets doesn't guarantee you'd win, you still have to compete with other people who've also bought gold bullets. It is no different than subscriptions, or buying contents, or buying storage and character slots. It is a play fee. At least with the gold bullets, you can still play without it, albeit at a lower efficiency.

    -T
    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry jam View Post
    But in a PvP game with pay2win items, using those items are legal according to the rules. If you don't have the items, you will be playing artificially worse. In a pay2win PvP game, paying is part of the game, just like paying a subscription fee for WoW is.
    Well, yes, of course. But I thought we were talking about Guild Wars and having a discussion from the perspective of introducing pay2win/pay2save time items into a known game model that doesn't include them. Or (re: PVP) where the cost for the boosts would be considered "extra" vs. WoTs where it seems it's more like paying for extra content, or an alternate way of paying for content (ie, the standard free2play model).


    As I said earlier, it's not about "getting to the fun" faster than someone else. It's about getting to the fun faster than you would if you didn't pay.

    Let's not trick ourselves: PvE is about achieving goals (both the process and the end). When you are going into a dragon's den to kill it, it's about the end fight because that's your entire reason for going in there, but it's also about the path getting there.
    However, for some goals the process kind of isn't important. Leveling is such a goal: you don't care about going from 328768 xp to 328769 xp. You care about the one xp point that will get you to the next level, or to the max level.

    It's not about how much boost these items give. It's about that they give a boost.
    I do think I now see what you mean, but I still have to disagree with your conclusion. As you say, they speed up getting to the fun, but until the speed up gets to a point where it doesn't make sense to not use them to the average player, it's still a pay2save time (for yourself) rather than pay2win, as people can still achieve the same enjoyment without the items, it will just take them a little bit longer. As long as that "little bit longer" doesn't feel unfair or make you feel like you are wasting your time by doing it just by in-game methods, then it doesn't reduce your own fun no matter which method you use.
    Last edited by BladeDVD; 29-07-2012 at 04:38.

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