Great post about pay2win and pay2savetime

[Alaris]

Yet people have been claiming that I'm bull****ting and "redefining" all along. Of course, they can't point out anything wrong with my arguments (because there isn't anything wrong; I simply state facts that they find uncomfortable)

1) You *have* been redefining and bull****ting.

2) Your argument is still wrong because regardless of your definition of pay2win, most people don't have a problem with GW2 boosts for a good reason, that is, they don't have to pay to progress further. They're fine with boosts so long as they don't actually have to use them to get to level 80 and play all the content.

3) Nobody gives a jam's butt if someone else gets to level 80 before you do, or if you get to level 80 slower than you could have. I don't know why you keep trying to make us join that bandwagon, oh yeah, I do know... because your argument needs that.

4) You're doing the bulk of the ignoring here, which is why you still think you're right. Meanwhile, you sound like a creationist.

5) Fanboyish is better than hategirlism, everytime.

[Lady Rhonwyn]

The only reason you did not reach level 80 for four years of playing GW2 is because you either

1. Restart characters/make alts all the time.
2. Play very, very little (3-4 hours per month?)
3. Gain xp extremely slowly (and I mean to the point where you log in and just stand around and chat with people)

In either of these cases, the chance that you will care so much about getting to level 80 that you could be proud of it, is very small. Even then, all you did was spend time in-game. That is literally all you did to reach level 80, with or without boosts. It's Thursday today, are you proud of this fact?

Yeah, going anywhere for the first time can be a challenge. If you actually have to do something. But xp is not like that. Imagine you could get into your car and just drive, anywhere, you could crash (don't worry, your car will respawn and you will be unharmed, you just have to pay pocket change for repairs), you could get lost, or even by mistake drive to Africa. Regardless of what you do or which path you take, you will, as if by magic, after driving for 20-30 minutes, end up at the location you set out to reach. That is what xp is like. You could be proud of the things you did during the journey. But the fact that you made it to the end, when that was the only thing that possibly could happen...?

And no, if everyone buy me didn't use boosters, it would still not be special. Let's say I have a Fiat and you have a Ferrari, and we race (and you win, but that is beside the point). Am I supposed to be proud of reaching the finish line just because I have a Fiat?

I really get the feeling you simply don't understand the concept of personal satisfaction and personal pride. I don't care what another might think of my achievement. For me, reaching that goal can be highly satisfying and give me a feeling of pride.

And again, your comparison is off. It's not that you reach a certain goal, you reach a certain goal despite certain odds. Those odds can be external (timers for instance) but can also be challenges you set yourself.

It's not simply that race of the Ferrari against the Fiat, but the perfectly working Ferrari (the game does offer you the possibility to reach it) against the handicapped Fiat (you decide to not make use of certain features the game offers you to smooth the path). YOUR choice, YOUR goal, YOUR satisfaction.

Why would people try to work as hard as possible to get lvl80 as fast as possible? The game isn't designed for that. Yet people do it, for their own personal satisfaction.

[Alaris]

Why would people try to work as hard as possible to get lvl80 as fast as possible? The game isn't designed for that. Yet people do it, for their own personal satisfaction.

The only reason why I want to get my main at level 80 asap is to get in the endgame market for profit.

Otherwise, I would be happy leveling all 6 alts simultaneously at my own pace.

[Perspectives]

It's not about beating people to level 80. It's about you getting to level 80. Let's say it takes 3 months normally for an average player (I took that number out of my butt but it's enough for discussion). And then you have an item that gives a 50% xp boost. If the player buys enough boosts to continuously use them, he will be level 80 in 1.5 months instead of 3. Since he wants to reach level 80 as soon as possible, he will feel a desire to buy those boosts.

This is the exact same thing as actual pay2win in PvP. You can't really call it pay2win in PvE since you will win even without the items. It's more like, pay2savetime, as in the thread title. But it is the same thing: you pay to achieve your goal.

First off I would like to say hello as this is my first post on this forum. This conversation has interested me quite a bit since I first read it a few days ago. Something about the way you described this as pay2win seemed true to an extent but something about the comment bothered me. If it truly is pay2win (which I see it more as a limited form of it) the question popped up in my head why does it exist in the first place? I don't mean that question as in why does Areanet do it but why do we have pay2win? I started thinking about it a lot and realized that people don't always use pay2win systems in every game. So the question about why is it so prevalent in the MMO sub genre popped in my head. Yes I know I seem to be jumping around here but that's kind of how my brain works so bare with me.

MMO's seem to have some added factors that other online games are missing. What I mean by this is in every online game skill and experiences are the top deciders of how a player perceives they have progressed through out a game. For instance being able to understand how different units work in a strategy game or possessing the fastest twitch response in an FPS. MMO's seem to differ in 1 way and that is they are affected by time. Now you might say wait a minute time affects all games! While that is true time only seems to have an affect on skill and experience for the other genres. MMO’s are unique because you get to start with saved advantages. Examples include a +5 sword of awesomeness or an upgraded spell of ownage. The other online games always start you from scratch to level the playing field. This actually gives a large advantage to people who have a lot of time on there side to obtain said advantages. Now this is where Pay2win starts to make sense. Most people do not sadly have 14 hours a day to play a favored game and start suffering because of it (ie they don’t get to raid with friends or can’t pwn in the pvp). This creates a unique world where people with time have an unfair advantage over those with less time. You might say that people also have an advantage in other games too but it’s not as big of an advantage as in MMO’s due to the things listed before.

So how do people create a fix for this issue? Well that’s where real money comes into play. It’s something they obviously have that other people want (because that time they don’t have is probably used at work). Illegal websites where people with lots of time sell in game items start popping up to help address the time disparity. Mind you this doesn’t exactly remove the advantage people with time have in-fact it doesn’t even make them even but it does lessen the gap. So this brings up an interesting dilemma how does one address the advantages of time to create a sense of balance and fun for players. The only thing I can think of at this point (and this is a band aid like pay2win systems but I think a better and more equitable one) is that we need to start removing advantage from people that go beyond the casual players time threshold. For instance reducing drops rates/experience for every hour played until it hits 0. This way people can still play all they want (to get better at content and/or experience the story) but they won’t create as big of an advantage. Also, another large help would be lots of low/mid range content to keep those with lots of time entertained. I think MMO’s potentially integrating systems like this would actually negatively impact pay2win stores as they wouldn’t be as needed because you wouldn’t have as much of an advantage to catch up too.

In conclusion Pay2win is a band aid that was brought about because of the unfair nature of the time element in MMO’s. While Areanets systems may have some pay2win features such as trading jewels for in game gold it is needed to create fairness for the casual player. Also, Areanets system is rather less of an overall advantage due to the inability to buy unfair large advantages such as weapons or large increase in abilities. Finally, I would like to thank everyone for reading my theory and I appreciate any comments negative or positive about this theory. Thank you for your… time.

[RD]

I'm not following this thread or discussion, but welcome to the forums

[Perspectives]

I'll admit it's a bit convoluted and long. Thanks for the warm welcome!

[RD]

Oh, I didn't mean your post, I meant the last 34 pages :)

[sorudo]

The only reason why I want to get my main at level 80 asap is to get in the endgame market for profit.

Otherwise, I would be happy leveling all 6 alts simultaneously at my own pace.

i always do things on my own pace, rushing things only asks for regret.

believe me, i know.....

[Alaris]

Rushing? Not really. I'll just play mostly one till the end before I divide my attention amongst the other 5.

[raspberry jam]

1) You *have* been redefining and bull****ting.

2) Your argument is still wrong because regardless of your definition of pay2win, most people don't have a problem with GW2 boosts for a good reason, that is, they don't have to pay to progress further. They're fine with boosts so long as they don't actually have to use them to get to level 80 and play all the content.

3) Nobody gives a jam's butt if someone else gets to level 80 before you do, or if you get to level 80 slower than you could have. I don't know why you keep trying to make us join that bandwagon, oh yeah, I do know... because your argument needs that.

4) You're doing the bulk of the ignoring here, which is why you still think you're right. Meanwhile, you sound like a creationist.

5) Fanboyish is better than hategirlism, everytime.

1, No, I haven't. Not even once. I have, however, asked you where I have redefined anything, and you haven't answered. You yourself, though, have done it, as well as other completely ridiculous arguments such as that "you must be wrong because you sound like a creationist" which is two fallacies rolled up in one. I would say you were an excellent troll if not for the fact that you believe in what you say.

2, So my argument (which is that people can buy success) is wrong because people are fine with the boosts? God damn you fail at logic.

3, Of course people care about getting to 80 quickly. As you say yourself, being able to access "endgame" fast can be a goal. And it certainly will be a goal, when you play your 9th or so character and don't really care about the early on stuff. I mean, yes, there are multiple paths to take and all that, but by the time you make your 9th char you won't care about that stuff. What you will care about is getting your new char to 80.

4, I ignore nothing. As you have seen, I admit all correct points, and point out the flaw in all incorrect ones.

5. But I don't hate. Being blinded by anything prevents you from seeing the truth.

I really get the feeling you simply don't understand the concept of personal satisfaction and personal pride. I don't care what another might think of my achievement. For me, reaching that goal can be highly satisfying and give me a feeling of pride.

And again, your comparison is off. It's not that you reach a certain goal, you reach a certain goal despite certain odds. Those odds can be external (timers for instance) but can also be challenges you set yourself.

It's not simply that race of the Ferrari against the Fiat, but the perfectly working Ferrari (the game does offer you the possibility to reach it) against the handicapped Fiat (you decide to not make use of certain features the game offers you to smooth the path). YOUR choice, YOUR goal, YOUR satisfaction.

Why would people try to work as hard as possible to get lvl80 as fast as possible? The game isn't designed for that. Yet people do it, for their own personal satisfaction.

No, I do get the point of personal satisfaction. What I'm saying though, is that if you play so little that you still haven't reached 80 in four years is that you barely even play the game. And you certainly don't make any attempt to level quickly even when you do play. Are you saying that you feel personal satisfaction about something you don't even try to do?

And yes, you are right about "despite certain odds", but what are the odds that you will not get to level 80? Literally all you need to do is to sink enough time into the game, either on killing stuff or crafting stuff.

Remember, in our example, the Fiat will lose. It also will cross the finish line. And you are saying that you are proud of crossing the finish line.

If you are saying "I want to try to get to level 80 within one month, without boosts" then we would have something. But that would just lead us to another discussion: the one about making personal limitations to your play and feeling a sense of reward from those, as opposed to more tangible rewards given by the game itself.

First off I would like to say hello as this is my first post on this forum. This conversation has interested me quite a bit since I first read it a few days ago. Something about the way you described this as pay2win seemed true to an extent but something about the comment bothered me. If it truly is pay2win (which I see it more as a limited form of it) the question popped up in my head why does it exist in the first place? I don't mean that question as in why does Areanet do it but why do we have pay2win? I started thinking about it a lot and realized that people don't always use pay2win systems in every game. So the question about why is it so prevalent in the MMO sub genre popped in my head. Yes I know I seem to be jumping around here but that's kind of how my brain works so bare with me.

MMO's seem to have some added factors that other online games are missing. What I mean by this is in every online game skill and experiences are the top deciders of how a player perceives they have progressed through out a game. For instance being able to understand how different units work in a strategy game or possessing the fastest twitch response in an FPS. MMO's seem to differ in 1 way and that is they are affected by time. Now you might say wait a minute time affects all games! While that is true time only seems to have an affect on skill and experience for the other genres. MMO’s are unique because you get to start with saved advantages. Examples include a +5 sword of awesomeness or an upgraded spell of ownage. The other online games always start you from scratch to level the playing field. This actually gives a large advantage to people who have a lot of time on there side to obtain said advantages. Now this is where Pay2win starts to make sense. Most people do not sadly have 14 hours a day to play a favored game and start suffering because of it (ie they don’t get to raid with friends or can’t pwn in the pvp). This creates a unique world where people with time have an unfair advantage over those with less time. You might say that people also have an advantage in other games too but it’s not as big of an advantage as in MMO’s due to the things listed before.

So how do people create a fix for this issue? Well that’s where real money comes into play. It’s something they obviously have that other people want (because that time they don’t have is probably used at work). Illegal websites where people with lots of time sell in game items start popping up to help address the time disparity. Mind you this doesn’t exactly remove the advantage people with time have in-fact it doesn’t even make them even but it does lessen the gap. So this brings up an interesting dilemma how does one address the advantages of time to create a sense of balance and fun for players. The only thing I can think of at this point (and this is a band aid like pay2win systems but I think a better and more equitable one) is that we need to start removing advantage from people that go beyond the casual players time threshold. For instance reducing drops rates/experience for every hour played until it hits 0. This way people can still play all they want (to get better at content and/or experience the story) but they won’t create as big of an advantage. Also, another large help would be lots of low/mid range content to keep those with lots of time entertained. I think MMO’s potentially integrating systems like this would actually negatively impact pay2win stores as they wouldn’t be as needed because you wouldn’t have as much of an advantage to catch up too.

In conclusion Pay2win is a band aid that was brought about because of the unfair nature of the time element in MMO’s. While Areanets systems may have some pay2win features such as trading jewels for in game gold it is needed to create fairness for the casual player. Also, Areanets system is rather less of an overall advantage due to the inability to buy unfair large advantages such as weapons or large increase in abilities. Finally, I would like to thank everyone for reading my theory and I appreciate any comments negative or positive about this theory. Thank you for your… time.

Hi Perspectives, and welcome.

You write very well, but... I'm sorry for this, but I'll boil down your argument a bit. Please let me know if I'm wrong about anything here.

You are basically saying that MMOs reward you for investing your time, and that pay2win systems were implemented to help people who don't have as much time to invest in the first place.

I agree, but I also want to point out that a system doesn't always do what it was supposed to do. There are more classes of players than just those who can spend time and those who can't. In fact there is a whole spectrum of players with different amounts of time to spend, and of course different amounts of cash to spend as well. If it was just an aid for people with little time and lots of money, it would not be a larger problem than just a way to squeeze people at a suitable disadvantage for money. Which might sound unfair, but which is also the foundation of market economy. You sell food to hungry people, etc.

But it's not just that. The boosts are cheap. And people who spend a lot of time tend to care more than people who spend limited amounts of time. It's the people who care, not just the people that need the boosts as an aid, that will buy them.
And of course, paying money for something just means that you'll care more.