Great post about pay2win and pay2savetime

[sorudo]

If someone gets to level 80 because of using boosts, then complains about it, that's on them. They chose to use them, they have to live with the consequences.

we have to listen to their whining, something i really don't want.
also, one analogy doesn't overrule the other, what rasp thinks doesn't have to be the one thing, think grey for ones.

[The King of Dust]

I have a question for those who think pay to save time is bad...how do you feel about the PvP skill unlocks in the GW shop? Do you think they are unfair? Or do you like them. This isn't much different. In this case with boosts and that case with skill unlock packs, you are paying to save time.

I think they are unfair, but more than that, I think they should have all been unlocked from the start anyway. I also think that as far as pvp is concerned, one should not have to buy an expansion to be able to use the skills from that expansion. Emphasis on PvP. From a player's point of view, this is what I think makes the most sense. Games should be designed to be as fair and as fun as possible, and money should be a means to that end, not the other way around. When the people in charge start thinking "How can I use this game to make more money" instead of "How can I make this game a better game", the end result suffers from it.

Thankfully the GW2 team seems to have plenty of people still focused on making a game they'd want to play, and the impact of what's currently offered in the gem store should be minimal. But the underlying principle of providing an advantage to players with more disposable income is still present and it's a slippery slope. And it's not just the offerings that are directly in the gem store. With RMT in place, anything that can be acquired with gold can also be acquired with real money. Including consumables that improve in-game fighting capabilities, like food and potions.

It's no game-breaker (far from it), since they're all craftable and so far seem completely unnecessary. But I genuinely believe that the game would be better without RMT and the gem store boosts. And the consumables. All of them. I hate consumables.

[bearsfwd]

we have to listen to their whining, something i really don't want.
also, one analogy doesn't overrule the other, what rasp thinks doesn't have to be the one thing, think grey for ones.

Well, whatever. We can all go around and around about this all day, but it doesn't change the fact that our opinions differ and nothing will convince us otherwise.

[shawn]

Difference being, one opinion is actually correct, and based on reality.


There is no ****ing way that getting to 80 in gw2 is like an Olympic race. The winner gets absolutely no special reward compared to the people who reach 80 after them.

[Alaris]

Difference being, one opinion is actually correct, and based on reality.

There is no ****ing way that getting to 80 in gw2 is like an Olympic race. The winner gets absolutely no special reward compared to the people who reach 80 after them.

If GW2 is like Olympics, getting to level 80 is your training (and you can pay someone to help you train) and doing the elite areas and dungeons is like doing the 500m race.

There's nothing you can pay to help you with the race, but paying a trainer will help you get there sooner.

[Juiced]

If GW2 is like Olympics, getting to level 80 is your training (and you can pay someone to help you train) and doing the elite areas and dungeons is like doing the 500m race.

There's nothing you can pay to help you with the race, but paying a trainer will help you get there sooner.

And you will most probably be a ****tier player for it because the 'trainer' doesn't learn you to time dodging, learn to see and use more combos, and everything else that playing the game might teach you

I can see why some people think it gives people an unfair advantage over others. In a way it is more a 'pay2get some minor advantage directly after the game launches' than 'pay2win', because it's about PvE and not PvP. In the beginning it even gives players in WvW an advantage because they have all their trait lines unlocked. But I'm quite sure that after 25% of the number of days it takes to get to level 80 with boosts, others will also reach the level 80 and the advantage is gone. Those with the disadvantage just learned to play against odds and became better players than those relying on trait lines and skills. In my opinion it's a temporary advantage at best.

I don't give a rat's *** about my armour or weapons as long as it's as good as any other armour or weapon out there. This advantage some might buy can't really upset me, I see why they implemented it (earn more money and pay to save time for those who can afford it). I can't say I wouldn't make some extra profit of something I made if I did have the chance, probably, we all would. I really like how they do not betray their standards with respect to fair PvP and the lack of uber elite gear you need to spend ridiculous amounts of whatever you have on.

Tl;dr... those people who use the boosts will have a slight advantage at the start, but the rest will catch up and once everyone and their mums owns 4 level 80 characters it's just plain pay2savetime.

[shadowhand]

This is different from people spamming: "LF runner to LA!" how?

[bearsfwd]

This is different from people spamming: "LF runner to LA!" how?

This, and it's no different than the PvP skill unlocks. But I don't see anyone complaining about them now.

[raspberry jam]

No, but there's a huge difference: in PvE you're not forcing others to buy the same boosts to stay competetive.

And do you really equate the ability to level up with skill at the game? AFAIK leveling is still fastest by just running around and exploring as much as you can while doing any events you pass on the way, all of which is completely unaffected by boosts.

Monsters A, B and C will give the same amount of xp btw, with the de-leveling system (I didn't notice any XP increase from killing higher level mobs, if there is it must be marginal).

Skill at a game is simply the ability to efficiently do whatever the goal of the game is. So yeah, if the goal is getting to level 80 (and as I said, for many it is), then getting to level 80 fast means that you are skilled.

And it doesn't really matter. In PvE you're forced to buy boosts since not buying them would mean you progress slower than you normally would. Not buying boosts in PvP would mean that you win less than you normally would. It's the same thing, if you consider "win" in PvE to be progress at as high a pace as possible.

Which many do.

You can't just throw aside the purist gamer's just cause they don't back your side. The point you were trying to make involves the choice people have. You asked a question, and I gave you an answer for it. There was no right or wrong answer to that question since it was based on players opinions. There are purist gamers out there, and there aren't.

And we are talking about GW2, not other games. Let's stick to the same topic. There is no pay2win in sPvP in GW2.

But purist gamers do back my side. Actual purists, that is. Those that only care about one thing: playing well. And if the game includes buyable boosts, then buying the boosts are part of playing well.

I'm aware that pay2win in GW2 PvP doesn't exist, just as you are aware that I only used it as an example.

You are all wrong.

1) You compare people who don't have time to play being able to pay to progress faster, but the reality is that there are many who either have neither or have both. So those who can pay and can play lots will have a serious "advantage" over those who don't have time or money, whatever that advantage is.

2) The advantage is cosmetic, but also economic. People who get to endgame first will get endgame stuff first, which will sell for far more shortly after the game releases. Once most people catch up, it won't matter as much.

3) It's still not pay2win because by definition, you need to be able to progress normally to be able to use those bonuses. It's pay2savetime.

4) The game is the endgame. So aside for the cosmetic / economic endgame, there's not even a good reason to want to progress faster.

1) Indeed. And that advantage partially comes from things outside the game, such as their wallet. It should not.

2) Indeed. Which is why getting to level 80 means a lot. Another reason is that people (if they create a new character later on) want to play a character at full potential, which is only possible at max level.

3) Yes, but in PvE, you're nearly assured of winning anyway. So in PvE, saving time = win.

4) I played 23 levels and if those are like the endgame is then there's no point in playing.

If "success" is here defined as "getting to lvl80 fast", then "success" never depended on skill, it depended on time spent playing the game. Someone who plays 20 hours a week will get to lvl80 faster than someone who plays 5, no matter how good that player is.

In GW2, the notion that spending more time at a game entitles you to faster progression is axed. Now you can spend time OR money, and neither is no more noble than the other. If your goal is to get to lvl80 as fast as possible, you now have two options: spend more time or spend more money. "Be better at the game" is a third option, but really, for general PvE, it was never and has never been terribly important.

Skill WILL be important for dungeons (at least it's supposed to be). But you're auto-leveled for those and none of the cash shop items are going to help you there, so racing to lvl80 isn't a problem for that balance.

But you've been grinding this axe unsuccessfully for months now, so I'd be lying if I said you'd stop spouting this nonsense now.

You can also spend time AND money. Your entire argument is therefore invalid.

Difference being, one opinion is actually correct, and based on reality.


There is no ****ing way that getting to 80 in gw2 is like an Olympic race. The winner gets absolutely no special reward compared to the people who reach 80 after them.

Hello Shawn I'm happy to hear that you read the entire thread without understanding a single thing of it.

This is different from people spamming: "LF runner to LA!" how?

It's against the EULA to pay for a run with real-life money and you could get banned for doing so. Paying with in-game money is ok, same as buying boosts with in-game money would be.

[shawn]

Hello Shawn I'm happy to hear that you read the entire thread without understanding a single thing of it.

Not my fault people were throwing out horribly wrong analogies. "Think gray for ones, geez."