Great post about pay2win and pay2savetime

[Ringsgold]

No, I don't. I care that it feels as if I don't pay, I'm not playing as well as I could. Which is the same reason why pay2win in PvP would be bad.

The amount of xp you get for killing something is completely irrelevant to how well you play. But if it really bothers you that much, buy the boosts and get to 80 20 minutes faster.

Do you also get cheats/trainers for every singleplayer game you play so you can switch on godmode and everything the minute you start playing? I mean, you want to play as well as you can, right?

[kokabel]

We are discussing how wrong microtransactions are when they affect gameplay.

Well, from what I tried, they were really kind of crappy and definitely not worth it. Considering their current pricetag especially, a person would do better to plan out their levelling route really thoughtfully (or whatever other goal) than spending money on these things. If I get them again from PvE rewards, I will likely use them just to get them out of my inventory.

But that's just my experience.

[bearsfwd]

I think it's a retardedly stupid idea. On the other hand, if I bought GW1 today I'd be thankful for it since it means I could skip the grind.

As I said before, I would definitely buy a "direct to level 80" kit.

So, you think SOME time saver things are ok, but others aren't? Seriously?

Well, I guess we just have to follow rasp as to what time savers are ok to buy and what aren't! /sarcasm

Lol, this is the biggest load of crap I've ever read. How can SOME time savers be ok, but others be unacceptable? They are all time savers, and in fact, the ones you admit you would buy are the ones that don't even require playing. At least the boosts that you hate so much require you to play to make them worth while.

This is a black and white issue. Either time savers are ok or they are not ok. And in my opinion they are ok as they don't give you any true advantage. Any advantage you get from them will be very short lived (especially since the XP boosts are ONLY on kills). In the end if you suck at the game, you'll suck regardless of if you used boosts or not. It's not like you become a good player when you hit level 80.

[Deuceswild]

The real problem here is that raspberry seems to equate efficient play with reaching level 80 faster than anyone else. Also raspberry equates reaching level 80 with winning.

On the first issue, efficiency is in how the tools are used by the individual, not the tools themselves. If someone buys a bunch of these boosts and then goes and tries to grind xp from mainly killing enemies, they are not being very efficient at all, since most of the xp comes from completing events and personal story or completing objectives in WvW. So therefore it is not strictly about efficiency, it is just a tiny boost in efficiency for an efficient player.

Second issues is that raspberry equates getting to level 80 with winning and thinks that the majority or even a large percentage of us see it that way. If just reaching max level was all that mattered I would never have completed any of the stories in GW1 because I reached level 20, and won. Time to quit and move according to raspberry, nevermind that I might still have 5-10 main story missions left to complete, doesn't matter I already won because I reached level 20. I feel that will be the same situation in GW2, I think I will reach level 80 a fair amount before encountering Zhaitan, does this mean that facing Zhaitan means nothing, because I already won the game. See, I believe that the majority of players don't believe that reaching 80 is the be all end all of the game. I will go outside the MMO world to Dragon Age for another example, I finished the story at level 18 but the max level was 25 so did I win the game or not. According to my understanding of what you are proposing then maybe I didn't because I didn't because I didn't either complete it at a lower level thus being more efficient or I didn't reach max level. To most of us, I believe that reaching max level in an MMO is not equated to winning. I think that mindset is only there for a minority. I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

[teina]

So, you think SOME time saver things are ok, but others aren't? Seriously?

Well, I guess we just have to follow rasp as to what time savers are ok to buy and what aren't! /sarcasm

Lol, this is the biggest load of crap I've ever read. How can SOME time savers be ok, but others be unacceptable? They are all time savers, and in fact, the ones you admit you would buy are the ones that don't even require playing. At least the boosts that you hate so much require you to play to make them worth while.

This is a black and white issue. Either time savers are ok or they are not ok. And in my opinion they are ok as they don't give you any true advantage. Any advantage you get from them will be very short lived (especially since the XP boosts are ONLY on kills). In the end if you suck at the game, you'll suck regardless of if you used boosts or not. It's not like you become a good player when you hit level 80.

Interesting you brought up this point. Seems to me though people in this thread (except for a few) are ok with XP boost, but not with, say, defense or attack boost. Why is that, when in PvE, as the argument goes, it doesn't affect you? Attack and defense boosts would just allow people to get past certain challenges faster. So by those same arguments (doesn't affect anyone else in PvE, just a pay2savetime), then combat boosts for PvE are perfectly fine, right?

Otherwise, "How can SOME time savers be ok, but others be unacceptable?"

-T

[BladeDVD]

The real problem here is that raspberry seems to equate efficient play with reaching level 80 faster than anyone else. Also raspberry equates reaching level 80 with winning.

On the first issue, efficiency is in how the tools are used by the individual, not the tools themselves. If someone buys a bunch of these boosts and then goes and tries to grind xp from mainly killing enemies, they are not being very efficient at all, since most of the xp comes from completing events and personal story or completing objectives in WvW. So therefore it is not strictly about efficiency, it is just a tiny boost in efficiency for an efficient player.

Second issues is that raspberry equates getting to level 80 with winning and thinks that the majority or even a large percentage of us see it that way. If just reaching max level was all that mattered I would never have completed any of the stories in GW1 because I reached level 20, and won. Time to quit and move according to raspberry, nevermind that I might still have 5-10 main story missions left to complete, doesn't matter I already won because I reached level 20. I feel that will be the same situation in GW2, I think I will reach level 80 a fair amount before encountering Zhaitan, does this mean that facing Zhaitan means nothing, because I already won the game. See, I believe that the majority of players don't believe that reaching 80 is the be all end all of the game. I will go outside the MMO world to Dragon Age for another example, I finished the story at level 18 but the max level was 25 so did I win the game or not. According to my understanding of what you are proposing then maybe I didn't because I didn't because I didn't either complete it at a lower level thus being more efficient or I didn't reach max level. To most of us, I believe that reaching max level in an MMO is not equated to winning. I think that mindset is only there for a minority. I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

I was just about to post something like this. I do agree that getting to max level is a goal, but it's not the only goal in PVE. And it won't necessarily get you to the end game faster.

I also get the feeling that the current xp boosts almost don't seem worth the money. I mean if you have money to burn, I guess why not, but if it only affects xp from monster kills, and given GW1 experience, until someone comes up with a farm for killing a lot of foes at once, I don't see this really being an issue. It will be interesting to see how Anet handles this. Obviously they want to make money with the cash shop, but I wouldn't even pay a dollar for an xp boost and I'll be one of the limited time players most likely too. Will they up the xp boosts until they significantly cut into the time it takes to get to max level?

Also, during the beta weekend, I was pretty easily able to get to lvl 14. Others got to 20+ and that was over just 3 days. At this rate, getting to lvl 80 shouldn't take much more than 24 days (10lvls/3 days, 80/10=8x3=24). So let's say anet makes it so the boost speeds things up by 1/3, which would be pretty significant. Does it make that much of a difference if it takes non cash players 8 more days? And this isn't done through grind, but through normal game play. And both cash shop and non-cash shop players will be at about the same place in the story too. I get a distinct mountain out of a mole hill feeling here.

Interesting you brought up this point. Seems to me though people in this thread (except for a few) are ok with XP boost, but not with, say, defense or attack boost. Why is that, when in PvE, as the argument goes, it doesn't affect you? Attack and defense boosts would just allow people to get past certain challenges faster. So by those same arguments (doesn't affect anyone else in PvE, just a pay2savetime), then combat boosts for PvE are perfectly fine, right?

Otherwise, "How can SOME time savers be ok, but others be unacceptable?"

-T

I think most people feel the xp boosts don't really give that much of a benefit. Also they have an end point of usefulness (as far as I know, it remains to be seen how useful extra skill points will be after lvl 80) whereas attack and defense bonuses are always going to be useful. It also detracts from the game's stated goal time vs. skill in regards to making max stats easy to attain for all, and skill being the ultimate way to stand apart from other players. Just being able to buy more power would completely invalidate that part of their stated game play goals.

[teina]

I think most people feel the xp boosts don't really give that much of a benefit. Also they have an end point of usefulness (as far as I know, it remains to be seen how useful extra skill points will be after lvl 80) whereas attack and defense bonuses are always going to be useful. It also detracts from the game's stated goal time vs. skill in regards to making max stats easy to attain for all, and skill being the ultimate way to stand apart from other players. Just being able to buy more power would completely invalidate that part of their stated game play goals.

Yet we have in-game items that boost stats (weapons, armors, etc.) What if those were for sale in the cash store? After all, instead of having to spend time to find them in-game, people can just buy them. Is that ok then? What if I can buy max stats weapons and armors through the cash shop, without having to find them in-game? That would certainly save me time without making me more overpowered than others who've found weapons in-game.

Note I'm not supporting one way or the other. I'm just pointing out that the argument "it's PvE, so if it doesn't affect you, you shouldn't care" doesn't ring true for me.

-T

[BladeDVD]

Well, we are getting that with the HoM rewards, aren't we? And GW1 had those /bonus weapon collections from the game of the year edition of Proph. and the pre order benefits for Factions and NF (or NF and EotN, I forget). And the Game of the Year Edition stuff was available in the cash shop.

So, technically, I think the GW community has shown it is fine with buying weapons in the cash shop. But they're fairly cheap in game (merch. had stuff for like 1-4silvers, vs. 10s of coppers in auction house for the same) so I don't think most people would buy specific weapons.

I think people would be more upset about weapon/armor skins being for sale in the cash shop given the way the game is set up.

I don't think the argument is so much that "it's PVE so it doesn't matter" (I know some are saying that, but I agree with you that it is an insufficient reply), I think it's more that the game doesn't have unreasonable amounts of grind to get max weapons/armor/skills (for your level) in game, and so shortcuts (from outside the game, ie. cash shop) for those things don't feel unfair.

[The King of Dust]

While they don't really feel unfair, they certainly don't feel useful either. Anybody who buys one deserves a lesson in understanding the real value of their money. And if they were actually useful, they'd end up being unfair. So we end up with either boosts that are useless, or boosts that shouldn't be there.

Unless you guys would also be ok with Anet selling a consumable that instantly makes your newly created character level 80 with maxed out gear, while the penniless plebeians still have to level up and acquire gear the "normal" way. If you're Ok with something like that, then I guess there's no way we'll ever agree. It's the same basic principle as an XP boost and magic find boost, only the proportions change.

Poison is poison, no matter if there's enough of it to kill you or so little of it that you don't even notice. In both cases, you're still better off without it.

[bearsfwd]

Interesting you brought up this point. Seems to me though people in this thread (except for a few) are ok with XP boost, but not with, say, defense or attack boost. Why is that, when in PvE, as the argument goes, it doesn't affect you? Attack and defense boosts would just allow people to get past certain challenges faster. So by those same arguments (doesn't affect anyone else in PvE, just a pay2savetime), then combat boosts for PvE are perfectly fine, right?

Otherwise, "How can SOME time savers be ok, but others be unacceptable?"

-T

Ok, I concede on the EXP boosts are acceptable but damage/defense boosts aren't.

My thinking as far as these two things being different is that one indirectly boosts your damage/defense via gaining levels at a slightly faster rate (if killing enemies). The other directly boost your damage/defense, which in my mind, would be considered pay2win.

However, since you turned my own argument against me, I see the flaw in my logic as far as exp boosts vs. damage/defense boosts. If what I do in PvE doesn't affect anyone else, then why should it matter what kind of boosts are available, as long as they are trivial enough that buying them doesn't feel required. Which right now, I think that's where the boosts we currently have are at. The amount of boost given is small enough that you don't feel like you HAVE to buy them.

However, I'm not giving up the rest of my argument. I still stand by the fact that there is nothing wrong with the boosts. There is no race to get to level 80, and if getting to level 80 is your goal, then by all means, get to it however you'd like, whether it's with boosts, without boosts, by crafting, etc.